Dallas Area: ARMA & Schola Saint George?

[Chase Dimick]

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to this stuff but I have always had a deep appreciation of history and martial arts.

I did SCA heavy combat for awhile, and while it was great fun and camaraderie I wanted a more in-depth historical and martial application of skills.

That said, I have been researching WMA groups in my area of Dallas/Fort.Worth, I know the Schola Saint George focuses on the teachings of Fiore die Liberi, and then I found ARMA which seems to encompass quite a bit of stuff.

I am curious from someone who has either done both or is aware of both how the two groups differ?

I'm looking for an honest and objective answer here, I know we all have our groups that we are proud of but I just want the most information so I can make an informed decision as to where I start training etc.

Thanks in advance!

Ealdwulf

[Webmaster]

Please edit your profile name to your first and last name as stated in our forum rules.

[Chase Dimick]

Noted and thanks for the warm welcome The screen name has been changed!

Anyways any insight would be helpful here, thanks folks!

[Stacy Clifford]

Hey, we only have a few rules; gotta enforce them. Thanks and welcome to the forum. I don't know anything about how Schola St. George operates, but I can tell you that ARMA does not focus solely on a single manual or master. Individuals and study groups may do so (and it is highly encouraged to study the sources yourself), but the central ARMA curriculum is based on analysis of many sources and the commonalities we find among them. We learn a set of core skills and principles gleaned from cross-study and then use them to explore various manuals and weapons individually; anything in any of the manuals from the time period we focus on is fair game for study if you've got the equipment to try it.

[Chase Dimick]

Awesome, thanks Stacy.

Sounds pretty interesting, I'm sure different study groups focus on different things. Is there one particular manual that is generally started out with? I supposed my best bet is to track down the local DFW group and talk with some of the instructors. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

P.S I was just giving you a hard time before

[Stacy Clifford]

Not one particular manual, but the longsword is our primary "starter" training weapon, so almost any of the German manuals along with Fiore and Vadi from Italy are good to start with. We have good groups in both DFW and Denton up there, so definitely look them up!

[Randall Pleasant]

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to this stuff but I have always had a deep appreciation of history and martial arts.

I did SCA heavy combat for awhile, and while it was great fun and camaraderie I wanted a more in-depth historical and martial application of skills.

That said, I have been researching WMA groups in my area of Dallas/Fort.Worth, I know the Schola Saint George focuses on the teachings of Fiore die Liberi, and then I found ARMA which seems to encompass quite a bit of stuff.

I am curious from someone who has either done both or is aware of both how the two groups differ?

I'm looking for an honest and objective answer here, I know we all have our groups that we are proud of but I just want the most information so I can make an informed decision as to where I start training etc.

Thanks in advance!

Ealdwulf

Chase

I have good knowledge of both. I have been a member of the ARMA DFW for 12 years. I also have also visited Schola Saint George serveral times in the past and got to know founder Brian Price fairly good. Brian Price was at one time a high level member of the SCA, I think he was a duke or something. Thus most of the Schola Saint George membership is from the SCA and most are still actively involved with the SCA. Thus, their interpretations, trainings, etc., a very similar to the SCA.

ARMA is very focus specifically on the Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe (MARE) as a true martial art. There is absolutely no dressup or role playing involved. ARMA follows the interpretations of our director John Clements, which are at least 2 generations ahead of all other groups, including Schola Saint George.

[Randall Pleasant]

One other thing I should have noted about Schola Saint George. About a year ago Brian Price resigned from the group and to the best of my knowledge he is no longer asscoiated with the group.

[Matthew Adams]

Chase

I have good knowledge of both. I have been a member of the ARMA DFW for 12 years. I also have also visited Schola Saint George serveral times in the past and got to know founder Brian Price fairly good. Brian Price was at one time a high level member of the SCA, I think he was a duke or something. Thus most of the Schola Saint George membership is from the SCA and most are still actively involved with the SCA. Thus, their interpretations, trainings, etc., a very similar to the SCA.

ARMA is very focus specifically on the Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe (MARE) as a true martial art. There is absolutely no dressup or role playing involved. ARMA follows the interpretations of our director John Clements, which are at least 2 generations ahead of all other groups, including Schola Saint George.

I am a member of SSG Boston, and I thought you might appreciate a contrasting opinion. None of us in Boston have ever participated in any LARPing, and the core group of practitioners all have experience in either fencing or one or more of the Asian martial arts. We take our training and commitment very seriously. We do on occasion wear historical clothing as that influences your body mechanics. Especially in regards to footwear.

I have never worked with any ARMA members because they exclude themselves from any cross group events, so I am not sure how one can claim to be "generations ahead" of another group. I would also be wary of anyone who says "I have the answer" instead of "I seek the answer".

An ARMA forum would not be the least biased place to ask for a comparison between ARMA and anyone else, so I suggest you attend class at each school, and decide where you fit in best based on your own experience.

Please understand, I mean absolutely no disrespect towards ARMA, from what little I have seen, they are a serious group, with an honest martial approach. Anyone who furthers western martial arts study gets my respect. I am simply wary of the isolationism, and the appearance of excluding the possibility that anyone else has anything to contribute, as witnessed in the above quote.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, but being compared to live action role playing is simply incorrect.

[Randall Pleasant]

Matthew

Your post was edited in order fix the quote, but there were no modifications to any text.

I did not intend any insult and regret any you feel.

None of us in Boston have ever participated in any LARPing, and the core group of practitioners all have experience in either fencing or one or more of the Asian martial arts. We take our training and commitment very seriously. We do on occasion wear historical clothing as that influences your body mechanics. Especially in regards to footwear.

I noted that a number of the Schola Saint George organization are members or former members of the SCA because Chase said he was a former member. By doing so I did not mean to imply that Schola Saint George did not take their training serious.

...I am not sure how one can claim to be "generations ahead" of another group.

This is a personal opinion but it is an objective and honest opinion based upon in-person observations, review of video materials, and review of written materials. This is not a case of my ego saying "my dog is bigger than your dog".

A goal of both our organizations is the recreation of the lost European combat arts. What I'm saying is that the new interpretations of John Clements in longsword represents a very large step forward in the recreation process. Clements longsword interpretation have also been like a Rosette Stone for us in that it has blown open our understanding of all other weapons systems. A good bit of that interpretation has already been shared by Clements in the Rosette Stone article and the Scales Footwork article. Those materials are there for the taking! When I see people using interpretations from 10+ years ago I cannot help but conclude that they are not as far along in the recreation process as is ARMA. In a more perfect world we would all be leap-frogging each other in the recreation process.

Please understand, I mean absolutely no disrespect towards ARMA...

Likewise, I did not mean any disrespect to Schola Saint George. Your organziation has been very friendly to me and I do value that.

Respectfully,

[Matthew Adams]

Randall,

Thank you very much for your reply.

I may have overreacted, so for that I apologize. If I look at what the Schola was doing ten years ago compared to current interpretations then I would have to say yes, you are generations ahead of those, but so are we.

And from what I can glean from John Clements Rosetta Stone (I am not familiar with the German terms, but I'm working on it) I do think he is making sound interpretations.

I also very much agree that it is all one art, and the differences between the German and Italian schools are superficial. That aspect of ARMA is one that I would like to see more of.

Its wonderful that we can have this civil discussion, there can't be more than a thousand or so practitioners in the U.S. and we REALLY need to stick together. We are all here to recreate a lost and noble art that is part of our history.

Respectfully,
Matthew

[Jaron Bernstein]

I can only speak from local knowledge. We have a local SSG group who I have interacted with at a Renn. festival event. They are nice enough folks and certainly study the manuals (mainly Fiore for our locals). One of them told me that they are still rather restricted by an SCA type rule structure.