Difference between Italian and German schools???

[Michael Kelly]

I'm not sure what I really thought, but somehow I assumed that the two schools of the longsword were fairly similar with slight differences. However the more I read the more the more it appears to me that there are some serious differences between the two schools. Now to be honest alot of this is coming from isolated responses in threads as I've never seen the two styles directly compared; but for the stupid, what are the differences and how do they compare and/or compliment each other?

[James Brazas]

I haven't done much with the Italian school, but I can give you a basic idea of the differences.

German longsword is aggressive, efficient, and strongly emphasizes seizing and maintaining the initiative. You seek the bind and there is a lot of emphasis on techniques for different ranges (far, near, and grappling distances). German longsword also tends to emphasize bigger cuts while stepping to get more power. Cuts are a full-body motion using your whole body in concert.

Italian longsword, from what I've seen, seems to have more stances/guards, more complicated close-in techniques and grappling, and more fancy techniques in general. They also tend to merely lean when they cut rather than having a full step. This means their cuts tend to be tighter and less powerful.

To put it simply, German longsword is all about the blitzkrieg: fast, powerful, efficient, and straightforward.

Italian longsword is all about complexity, decieving the enemy, and having a big bag of tricks.

[Jonathan Hill]

Speaking from an Italian perspective,

Italian is about seizing the center line. There is not a need to be aggressive, but more a need to understand the situation and how to deal with it, if he is aggressive yield to it rather than fight it and gain your victory that way (fight a bull as a matador not as another bull.) Italian has much more grappling and spends little time with ‘binding’ or getting ‘near’ and fighting at an ‘inside range’ (near,) rather if we will get past the optimum cutting range (far) we will prefer to be on top of you turning you into a pretzel not trying to bind and thrust. There are more guards and more time is spent in gaining the advantage before you attack rather than attacking to take the advantage. So a bit more of a game of chess rather than rugby .

German is more aggressive, sometimes it seems like they are less concerned with if it is the right time to attack, than just attacking, although the good German fencers will spend much time ‘gaining the vor’ before ‘taking the vor.’ Germans use all angles of cuts and prefer the bind to many other actions. Beware the helicopter cuts…

I wouldn’t agree that Italians cut mostly at a ‘lean,’ we do just as many cuts with steps as we do with ‘pia firma’ attacks. If I can lean in and hit you we are already in distance to hit each other and the first to act will be the winner (in fact if I'm in that distance you will be facing a thrust not a cut.) The goal is of course to get into that range while defending the line with your blade thus being in that range while safe and setting up an attack that will be 100% successful. In fact if you find you are fighting a guy who can hit you when he leans then you are in binding range and you might as well stick a point in his face…if you can.

When taken as a whole, the German school offers a greater variety of cuts than Italians and offers the practice at fighting in between cutting range and grappling range. The Italians will teach you a more strategic fight and give you better tools in the grapple. If you have both of these skill sets down you are well suited to fight any way you need.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I don't agree with that. There is very little in this Art that cannot be found in both German and Italian manuals. These masters did travel widely, and what are the settled borders of Europe in 2012 were a very different creature back in 1412 or 1512.

[RayMcCullough]

German longsword is aggressive, efficient, and strongly emphasizes seizing and maintaining the initiative. You seek the bind and there is a lot of emphasis on techniques for different ranges (far, near, and grappling distances).
Italian longsword, from what I've seen, seems to have more stances/guards, more complicated close-in techniques and grappling, and more fancy techniques in general.

???
Vadi and Fiore teach to be aggressive, efficient, and strongly emphasize seizing and maintaining the initiative. You seek the bind(crossing) and there is a lot of emphasis on techniques for different ranges (far, near, and grappling distances).
I'm not sure what you mean by "fancy techniques". There isn't an Italian guard that the Germans don't have and I can't imagine how anyone could say there is more grappling in the Italian sources.

Speaking from an Italian perspective,

Italian is about seizing the center line. There is not a need to be aggressive, but more a need to understand the situation and how to deal with it, if he is aggressive yield to it rather than fight it and gain your victory that way (fight a bull as a matador not as another bull.) Italian has much more grappling and spends little time with ‘binding’ or getting ‘near’ and fighting at an ‘inside range’ (near,) rather if we will get past the optimum cutting range (far) we will prefer to be on top of you turning you into a pretzel not trying to bind and thrust.
German is more aggressive, sometimes it seems like they are less concerned with if it is the right time to attack, than just attacking, although the good German fencers will spend much time ‘gaining the vor’ before ‘taking the vor.’ Germans use all angles of cuts and prefer the bind to many other actions.

Itailians not aggressive? LOL I guess the whole Audacity thing gets ignored by some. So if he is aggressive you yield? Sure the Germans teach the same thing. Strong on weak and weak on strong. Italians are all about the Bind(crossing) just as much as the Germans or any other Europeans during that time.

I still don't see the differences. I see many more simularities. Enough to say that there was a Pan-European Martial Art. One Martial Art.

[Matthew Adams]

I'm in the "more similar than different camp" also.

Especially as you look at a broader range of treatises. There are probably more differences between masters, than between traditions. If there is any difference at all, I think that German practitioners, (not necessarily the German treatises) tend to fight from a higher bind, "reign blows down upon your enemy" from the shoulders, while Italian practitioners tend to fight more from the hips.

My Italian based school cross trains with a local German based group, and we used to see double kills, where the German would get it in the gut, while the Italian got hit in the head. To me that shows an incompleteness on both sides, and we've both benefited from the cross training.

All those Italian posta are just way points showing positions of strength during a dynamic movement. They are moved through during techniques, they show stopping, starting, and mid points of cuts, thrusts, and parries, binds, and throws. From what I understand, they are shown without engaging an opponent in order to more clearly see proper body position and alignment.