Lake Ontario Fechtschule - Contact Info

[danielcarcich]

Greetings,

I am posting in hopes that someone will have information as to whether the following "school" in Syracuse is still active, and if they are, what their contact information might be. I have already attempted emailing the address which is listed on their website, but am hoping someone might know of a more up-to-date method. Thanks!

http://lakeontariofechtchule.webs.com/

-Daniel Carcich

[Kevin Reicks]

Greetings,

I am posting in hopes that someone will have information as to whether the following "school" in Syracuse is still active, and if they are, what their contact information might be. I have already attempted emailing the address which is listed on their website, but am hoping someone might know of a more up-to-date method. Thanks!

http://lakeontariofechtchule.webs.com/

-Daniel Carcich

I would not join that school even if it was still open. It might look kind of fun, all the costume stuff, but that isn't good sword play they teach. I don't think there is a study group in New York, but maybe you could convince others to join?

Again, I know it looks tempting but the methodology and interpretation of the manuals are very dodgy. The main organization that this school belongs to, Selohaar, has some very weird western mysticism, magic/magic ritual that goes on to some degree discussed somewhat on it's main page. http://www.selohaar.org/

Daniel, I'm sorry if I sound mean. I don't know you and I don't know what you are looking for. Maybe you did your due diligence, looked everything up and maybe you are a observant Polytheist and the magic stuff is fine and good with you. You also might not know the difference (where there is a lot) between what ARMA does and what Selohaar does. It is somewhat hard to argue that what we at ARMA do is more martially sound except watch videos of both our groups and make a decision for yourself.

[danielcarcich]

Kevin,

Fair enough! I appreciate the heads up, as I wasn't aware of much of that. I assumed that the 'dress-up' and costumes were simply part of an attempt to fight in a more authentic setting, though personally I don't see much value in it. I'm not interested in re-enactments - mostly I just long to find people with the same combative desire, and dedication to practice and improvement.

I've been stalking ARMA for years now, but there has never been a group in range of me in the Ithaca/Rochester NY area, sadly. As such, I make do with whichever partners I can convince (Reclaiming the Blade helped a lot with that, ha). Perhaps someday someone will get a group started here. Oh well!

Thanks again,
Daniel

[Kevin Reicks]

You're very welcome, glad I could be of service.

Why don't you join ARMA and start a study group? I'm here in southeast Michigan all alone and I am fairly confident others will eventually join in my area

[J. Scott Steflik]

Again, I know it looks tempting but the methodology and interpretation of the manuals are very dodgy... http://www.selohaar.org/

You're basing this on what, exactly? While I don't agree with much of what Tobler does (and definitely not the whole mysticism stuff), he puts his translations and interpretations out there for the world to see, discuss and pressure test. If you'd like to critique some of the recent work from that group it'd be an interesting and worthwhile discussion.
Other members of Selohaar go to, and present at, many events nationwide. I've watched some of them while they are sparring with longswords, messers and wrestling and what I've seen is martially sound techniques performed with speed, power and control.

I can't speak to the Lake Ontario group, but there are other chapters in Selohaar that do train with martial intent.

The German longsword group in Rochester is now defunct - the guy running it started having kids and stuff and that was the end of it! There's Alliance Martial Arts and In Ferro Veritas (classical fencing and some other stuff) in Ithaca. There was an Italian longsword group in Ithaca that was active a few years ago that I haven't heard anything about recently. There is(was?) a Buffalo club 3 years ago as well. If the kids give me a few minutes of computer time I'll see if I can hunt down the contact info.

This Group Finder is mostly up to date with all the known clubs (including the recent name changes in NJ and points Westwards). Some the the clubs I was mentioning were recently removed from the Finder b/c of lack of contact.

[RayMcCullough]

Again, I know it looks tempting but the methodology and interpretation of the manuals are very dodgy... http://www.selohaar.org/

You're basing this on what, exactly?...
.. I've watched some of them while they are sparring with longswords, messers and wrestling and what I've seen is martially sound techniques performed with speed, power and control.

Would you say that this is martially sound techniques performed with speed, power, and control?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPin1Hw8nKo

If the answer is yes, than we have a completely different understanding of what a fight is as well as Martially sound techniques performed with speed, power, and control.

[J. Scott Steflik]

Would you say that this is martially sound techniques performed with speed, power, and control?

I could cherry pick an old ARMA video and ask the same.

Other members of Selohaar...

As I said above, I don't agree with some of what Tobler does; his personal training methods (second hand accounts to fair) is included in that. Christian Tobler is not a fighter and doesn't train like one. Should one judge an entire organization comprised of independently operated chapters across the nation by holding up the example of one man? I've watched other members of Selohaar go up against some very good fighters (including former ARMA Scholars, Free Scholars and a former Deputy Director) so I'm not inclined to dismiss an entire large organization b/c I think the Principle Instructor or Director is a bit wonky.

I live within driving distance of Christian Tobler. I don't train with his group b/c his group doesn't train the way I want. There are other chapters in Selohaar that, based on the fighters I seen, I wouldn't hesitate to train with. YMMV and all that.

[Kevin Reicks]

Again, I know it looks tempting but the methodology and interpretation of the manuals are very dodgy... http://www.selohaar.org/

You're basing this on what, exactly? While I don't agree with much of what Tobler does (and definitely not the whole mysticism stuff), he puts his translations and interpretations out there for the world to see, discuss and pressure test. If you'd like to critique some of the recent work from that group it'd be an interesting and worthwhile discussion.
Other members of Selohaar go to, and present at, many events nationwide. I've watched some of them while they are sparring with longswords, messers and wrestling and what I've seen is martially sound techniques performed with speed, power and control.

I can't speak to the Lake Ontario group, but there are other chapters in Selohaar that do train with martial intent.

The German longsword group in Rochester is now defunct - the guy running it started having kids and stuff and that was the end of it! There's Alliance Martial Arts and In Ferro Veritas (classical fencing and some other stuff) in Ithaca. There was an Italian longsword group in Ithaca that was active a few years ago that I haven't heard anything about recently. There is(was?) a Buffalo club 3 years ago as well. If the kids give me a few minutes of computer time I'll see if I can hunt down the contact info.

This Group Finder is mostly up to date with all the known clubs (including the recent name changes in NJ and points Westwards). Some the the clubs I was mentioning were recently removed from the Finder b/c of lack of contact.

Ray is very right to put up a vid of him. There is a desgree to which he can say he is a scholar more then any kind of martial artist, but if he puts himself out there like that and claims to have a great and grand interpretation, I expect to see better performance.

I'll acknowledge not all groups are the same. You might be able to pick up a level martial ability even with poor technique if you free-play realistically enough. That being said, I'll stand by what I said earlier. Sometimes, you see a kung fu, karate, Tae Kwon Do practitioner holding his own against a Muay Thai practitioner. What I have seen in the former (once a practitioner myself) is not nearly as good as the later. Some of the former pick up habits of the later. Some of the later pick up techniques of the former.

[J. Scott Steflik]

...that isn't good sword play they (Selohaar) teach...the methodology and interpretation of the manuals are very dodgy

Have you ever trained with one of the Selohaar groups? Many of their interpretations can be found, but I haven't seen where any of them speak on *how* they train. I have seen members teach classes at events; the material was presented and drilled in much the same way I've seen clinics presented by ARMA members.

(Tobler ) puts his translations and interpretations out there for the world to see, discuss and pressure test. If you'd like to critique some of the recent work from that group it'd be an interesting and worthwhile discussion.

Which interpretations are an issue? Why? How do they contradict the text used? If they don't, which sources do they contradict? Why don't they work, mechanically, in a modern setting? Tactically? Would they have been effective in period?

Disagreeing with an interpretation is one thing, but if you are going to claim a group teaches crap (ok you said they're "dodgy" ) without having interacted with members of the group, please be prepared to back up aspects of the claim when called on it.

What I have seen in the former (once a practitioner myself) is not nearly as good as the later

Are you really bringing "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" into this, or am I not understanding your post correctly? It comes down to training.

There are some pretty well validated training methods that produce people who can fight effectively. Relying on solo work, techniques and set plays done in isolation and/or at slow speeds (like the majority of eastern martial arts schools as taught in the US) is not the way to go about it. I really wish more groups were completely open about *how* they train as well as *what* they train and their goals. It would only advance the Art. Thankfully it's a growing trend and one I'm happy to participate in!

But I think that topic derailed this thread sufficiently. I would like to discuss any issues with various current Selohaar interpretations. Perhaps I could even get one of the members to comment. The ones I've had contact with have generally been pretty open to sharing their thoughts. Along similar lines. there are some great discussions going on right now regarding ARMA's Krumphau interpretation I wish more ARMA members would participate in.

[Kevin Reicks]

...that isn't good sword play they (Selohaar) teach...the methodology and interpretation of the manuals are very dodgy

Have you ever trained with one of the Selohaar groups? Many of their interpretations can be found, but I haven't seen where any of them speak on *how* they train. I have seen members teach classes at events; the material was presented and drilled in much the same way I've seen clinics presented by ARMA members.

(Tobler ) puts his translations and interpretations out there for the world to see, discuss and pressure test. If you'd like to critique some of the recent work from that group it'd be an interesting and worthwhile discussion.

Which interpretations are an issue? Why? How do they contradict the text used? If they don't, which sources do they contradict? Why don't they work, mechanically, in a modern setting? Tactically? Would they have been effective in period?

Disagreeing with an interpretation is one thing, but if you are going to claim a group teaches crap (ok you said they're "dodgy" ) without having interacted with members of the group, please be prepared to back up aspects of the claim when called on it.

What I have seen in the former (once a practitioner myself) is not nearly as good as the later

Are you really bringing "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" into this, or am I not understanding your post correctly? It comes down to training.

There are some pretty well validated training methods that produce people who can fight effectively. Relying on solo work, techniques and set plays done in isolation and/or at slow speeds (like the majority of eastern martial arts schools as taught in the US) is not the way to go about it. I really wish more groups were completely open about *how* they train as well as *what* they train and their goals. It would only advance the Art. Thankfully it's a growing trend and one I'm happy to participate in!

But I think that topic derailed this thread sufficiently. I would like to discuss any issues with various current Selohaar interpretations. Perhaps I could even get one of the members to comment. The ones I've had contact with have generally been pretty open to sharing their thoughts. Along similar lines. there are some great discussions going on right now regarding ARMA's Krumphau interpretation I wish more ARMA members would participate in.

I watched a lot of videos of many groups before I joined and heard all the arguments. I also recommended people doing the same. There is a consistency problem I see in the Selohaar videos with lack of energy and techniques that look like sloppy Olympic fencing with longswords. Once in a while I do see some good, but not nearly on a consistent basis. I was speaking figuratively with my Asian martial art comparison. I stand by everything I wrote.

[RayMcCullough]

Would you say that this is martially sound techniques performed with speed, power, and control?

I could cherry pick an old ARMA video and ask the same.

Other members of Selohaar...

As I said above, I don't agree with some of what Tobler does; his personal training methods (second hand accounts to fair) is included in that. Christian Tobler is not a fighter and doesn't train like one. Should one judge an entire organization comprised of independently operated chapters across the nation by holding up the example of one man? I've watched other members of Selohaar go up against some very good fighters (including former ARMA Scholars, Free Scholars and a former Deputy Director) so I'm not inclined to dismiss an entire large organization b/c I think the Principle Instructor or Director is a bit wonky.

I picked the newest video of Tobler I could find. That being a 2010 video. Any 2010 or younger videos ofARMA to Cherry pick? Please let's discuss.

If the video is of sparring and 2010 or younger and does not appear to be martially sound techniques performed with speed, power, and control I would like to know.

Here is another thought to take into consideration. If someone isn't a fighter and does not train to be a fighter, why would you use his interpretations of fighting to learn to fight.
With that being said, Tobler's translations have been applauded by everyone I know and rightly so should be. It's his interpretations that are faulty.

I hope there are those who can fight and train in Selohaar.
Iwould like to see example of such as well. Who doesn'tlike to see that?

[RayMcCullough]

...that isn't good sword play they (Selohaar) teach...the methodology and interpretation of the manuals are very dodgy

Have you ever trained with one of the Selohaar groups? Many of their interpretations can be found, but I haven't seen where any of them speak on *how* they train. I have seen members teach classes at events; the material was presented and drilled in much the same way I've seen clinics presented by ARMA members.

So having not trained with them, we can only go off the videos we have of them.
What ARMA clinics have you been to?

]
(Tobler ) puts his translations and interpretations out there for the world to see, discuss and pressure test. If you'd like to critique some of the recent work from that group it'd be an interesting and worthwhile discussion.

Which interpretations are an issue? Why? How do they contradict the text used? If they don't, which sources do they contradict? Why don't they work, mechanically, in a modern setting? Tactically? Would they have been effective in period?

Ok.
Tobler's interpretations:
-Vom Tag= held resting on the shoulder. There is no example of a vom tag resting on a shoulder or a text that say to put it on the shoulder either. It limits the techniques that can be employed.
This doesn't work in a modern setting and tactically because striking from here is weak and lacks reach and limits techniques and limits targets. It would not have been effective in period for the same reason it is not effective in the modern one or tactically.

Here is one that is pretty simple and basic. We can start here if you like. i don't have thetimeright now to go any further.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

To be honest criticising other group's interpretations after the recent major fail in bringing support to ARMA's krumphau interpretation seems a bit misguided...

All the more so since ARMA's sparring videos are so rare, and not particularly more impressive, except by the lack of protective equipment (which is not a good thing in my opinion).

[Stacy Clifford]

To be honest criticising other group's interpretations after the recent major fail in bringing support to ARMA's krumphau interpretation seems a bit misguided...

I'm well aware that our krumphau video has been debated on other forums, though I have little time to follow them, but if there has been any concerted effort by ARMA members to "bring support," I haven't heard about it. Our interpretation was released on a public forum thread, and absolutely nobody commented, asked a question, or challenged it on that thread, which I found rather disappointing. You are more than welcome to start that discussion if you disagree with it.

[Ben Martin]

[quote="Stacy Clifford"]I'm well aware that our [i]krumphau[/i] video has been debated on other forums, though I have little time to follow them, but if there has been any concerted effort by ARMA members to "bring support," I haven't heard about it.[/quote]

I suspect the point is not that ARMA should “mobilize support”, so much as that perhaps ARMA should wish to have support for its official interpretations from outside; as in scholarly support.

An example: If a scholar puts out a theory (in any field), and if a significant portion of the other scholars in the world question his position, then the generally accepted scientific thing for that scholar is to double-check his own work first.

[quote="Stacy Clifford"]Our interpretation was released on a public forum thread, and absolutely nobody commented, asked a question, or challenged it on that thread, which I found rather disappointing. You are more than welcome to start that discussion if you disagree with it.[/quote]

You’re aware that it has been debated, but you saw a thread where nobody said anything. You’re simply not interested in the debate, or what?
I saw these:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26856
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/vi ... 13&t=19153
on which there was copious discussion, and much challenging……
What had you been reading?

[quote="RayMcCullough"]Ok.
Tobler's interpretations:
-Vom Tag= held resting on the shoulder. There is no example of a vom tag resting on a shoulder or a text that say to put it on the shoulder either. It limits the techniques that can be employed.
This doesn't work in a modern setting and tactically because striking from here is weak and lacks reach and limits techniques and limits targets. It would not have been effective in period for the same reason it is not effective in the modern one or tactically.

Here is one that is pretty simple and basic. We can start here if you like. i don't have thetimeright now to go any further.[/quote]

For edification, in the following thread, there is much further, with excellent references to the source material:
http://hemaalliance.com/discussion/view ... f=3&t=2459