Test Cutting Relevance

[Jack Daniels]

Reading through some of the articles on the website I noticed that there are a lot of critics towards the arts that center on Asian swordsmanship,from my limited experience in the martial arts in general I can see a lot of the critiques being accurate.

I think that in order for Armas system or program to fall into the same trap the Asian martial arts did there is a need to critically examine what you are doing as well.


It seems that every cutting video on the site is of someone giving committed full body blows with the forward edge while the sword is moving across the body but there is a video on the site called The real longsword where John states that the sword should be "winding from the crown".


The winding strikes are fast and definitely look cool, but because they involve more of a wrist and arm action I question their integrity.


When you spar you sometimes get stuck in a mental state where you just want to win and the training suffers from that,in this instance people might throw strikes with speed and no power,but because their strikes are perceived as deadly fight ending killing blows the fight is over.


This situation makes the Arma sparring become similar to karate,Asian swordsmanship or the looked down upon sport fencing.


I would very much like to see cutting tests with those winding strikes as they are performed in sparring without extra hip motion.


If we are to realistically look at the capability of our actions we should keep things in context.


If I am missing some information on this matter a point in the right direction would be appreciated if not I would like to know why this hasn't been addressed.

[Stacy Clifford]

If you are referring to the videos on this page:

http://www.thearma.org/Videos/NTCvids/t ... erials.htm

it's important to understand the audience these tend to be aimed at. Part of our mission is educating a public who knows nothing about our subject and is exposed to old myths that "European swords were for bashing and couldn't cut well" and "Japanese swords and armor were made of superior steel" and other such notions. Our public cutting videos tend mostly to aim at dispelling those myths. It doesn't mean that our members don't practice winding and twitching cuts with different footwork and hip movement (I have often done so myself), but it is a valid observation that it doesn't show in our current public videos as much. Cuts from the wrist and elbow using the hips can still bite strong and deep if thrown well, believe me, but it's good to get this kind of feedback from readers like you. Most of the videos on that page are a bit older, and the public is slowly becoming more educated as our subject's popularity spreads, so it's worth considering different perspectives for newer videos going forward. Thanks for taking the time to share your impressions.

[Jack Daniels]

I am not much for belief as I am for proof.

As I've stated before,one of my concerns is that the sparring becomes like the shotokan karate point systems.

Some of the practitioners might think they just made a debilitating fight ending blow when in fact it was just a good bite.

I understand your point and honestly did not consider it,but you should understand that that page alone has about 20 or 30 videos all of which are in 2 categories:testing on meat or testing armor.

None of those videos uses winding strikes,if you or maybe someone else in the community could preform tape and post such a test that would be much appreciated,I think the fact that it was not done before is an oversight.

[Stacy Clifford]

Some of the practitioners might think they just made a debilitating fight ending blow when in fact it was just a good bite.

I think every HEMA group out there has this debate on a regular basis. Lord knows we certainly do. We're well aware that it's an issue that can't be ignored, it simply hasn't been a priority item for demonstration videos yet.

None of those videos uses winding strikes,if you or maybe someone else in the community could preform tape and post such a test that would be much appreciated,I think the fact that it was not done before is an oversight.

I agree it's a good suggestion for a new video, and I'll make sure it gets passed along.

[Jack Daniels]

That is great to hear,thanks for the response.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

On the other hand, we should consider that test cutting is test cutting, not a real fight. The techniques needed to cut entirely through tougher cutting mediums are bound to be a bit exaggerated, being too wide and telegraphed to work in sparring or an actual swordfight (whatever that means). Somebody who's been cut halfway through the body is just as dead as somebody completely severed in two. So I wouldn't demand quite as much cutting power from the actual techniques performed in set-plays and free-play as from pure test-cutting moves--if it goes deep enough to hit a vital organ were the cut transposed into a human body, it's enough.

[Jack Daniels]

What I suggest is taking the strikes that you use in sparring and preforming them on a test target.


In a fight you should not worry about killing but incapacitating your enemy,the human body can be incredibly resilient.


You say cutting someone midway will kill,you're probably right,the question is when,if he can get a few swings in doesn't that worry you?


Besides from the test cutting that I saw guys using their strongest strike cut through of a pig carcass,sometimes midway and sometimes around a quarter,with their strongest strike.

Now cut that strike in half or probably more,imagine a strike like that hitting a highly aggressive and determined enemy,I read somewhere that in those times even small wounds could kill you because they had no way of treating them,so imagine a man like that realizing he will die because of you but he still has time to return the favor.

that is the reason I am very interested to see a test like that and I think you should be too.

[RayMcCullough]

We do need some videos of cutting from kron. It has been discussed before and i'm sure they will be made.

Here are some thoughts. The head is the most sought after target and then the hands(forearms). The head in particular does not require a lot of power to kill or disable the man and render him incapable of fighting. The hands do not require a lot of power to disable the man from putting up a good fight when he cannot hold a weapon anymore.
While the man who's hands are cut is not dead his fighting back is severely compromised.
The man who receives a cutting blow to the head on the other hand is not going to be able to fight. We know that severe head trauma, such as part of the skull being cut into an inch, is enough to send the man instantly into convulsions. These convulsions would be more than enough to stop a sword cut from the injured man even if he was already in the process of throwing said blow. Intersetingly enough, several masters advise to strike to the head if a man attempts to strike at your legs. If this happened with real swords the man who cut at the legs would be dead and the man who struck the head would be uninjured. When this happens in sparring it appears that one is struck in the head and one is struck in the legs and it appears to be a "double kill".

The masters knew what they were talking about when they said that strikes would be coming from a bind/crossings/kron. They did them for real and in sparring.

Oh and if you get a chance to spar with an ARMA guy, you will see that it is in no way a sword tag, touchy touch game. Strikes are hard and solid but controlled.

[Stacy Clifford]

The winding strikes are fast and definitely look cool, but because they involve more of a wrist and arm action I question their integrity.

Response to this from John Clements:

If you actually closely watch our videos of strikes with the short edge that wind from the crown, particularly against pells, you will see that the entire body is used --from foot all the way up to hands -- and that the point of the blade in these strikes is traversing in quite a large arc so that they are particularly powerful impacts, especially given they are double-hand strikes with long straight blades. We've used them to perform all manner of cut with sharp blades on meat and bone and other materials with the results being as gruesome as expected.

Further, if in free-play practitioners are not hitting with full leg or hip motions or extended arm it is precisely because they are sparring -- that is, not delivering killing blows. If this isn't appreciated, then something is seriously amiss.

It is the very approach that sparring is a tool of learning and must be accompanied with floryshing and pell exercises that specifically keeps our mock combat practice from turning into a recreational aberration as we see in so many other groups now and as long been the case with Asian combat sports.

One of the biggest mistakes people make is that they fail to realize just how easily the human body is seriously wounded and injured by even simple impacts of sharp bladed weapons. Even short tapping hits* can enter inches into the skull or neck or forearm as well as remove hands or fingers. We know this, not just because of historical evidence attesting to it over the centuries (including modern crime reports), but precisely because of our test-cutting on raw meat and bone with replica blades.

But all of that is always dependent upon the geometry of the blade in question, the sharpness of the edge, the impacting portion, the angle of the strike, the motion of the target, and finally, the force of the blow.

I for one have no question as to how damaging winding blows are.


*My Note: This does not mean John advocates tapping hits. This essay and others explain why strength is necessary to go with skill:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/strength.htm

[Jorge Cortines]

Besides from the test cutting that I saw guys using their strongest strike cut through of a pig carcass,sometimes midway and sometimes around a quarter,with their strongest strike.

Hi Jack,

About four years ago we did the target testing, and we cut from kron just as JC explains... Sadly we don´t have a video, but we do have pictures of the damage caused by such strikes...

We cut against a pig carcass going about 70-80% full force cuts from kron. Take into consideration that the portion of the head of the specimen has a harder skin, thicker and denser bone in that section of the skull in comparison to a human, and that it was hanging from a rope instead of standing... the results were gruesome, we got all the way to the brain when hitting the head... we used Oakeshott Type XVa Next generation Albion swords... now this swords are more tappered than Type XIIa or Type XIIIa meaning they have less mass at the weak part of the sword, but still were able to severly damage the specimen used in target testing...

The motion of cutting from kron involves using the whole body...

I´m convinced that this strikes would have ended immediately the fight...

Please be adviced of the graphic images:


Sheitelhau from kron to the head
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151463339858446&set=a.170806838445.123128.156040473445&type=3&src=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2F541627_10151463339858446_6691886_n.jpg&size=640%2C480


Zwerchau from kron to the head
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151463339943446&set=a.170806838445.123128.156040473445&type=3&src=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2F542748_10151463339943446_1890342348_n.jpg&size=640%2C480


Shielhau from kron to the neck/shoulder
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151463339878446&set=a.170806838445.123128.156040473445&type=3&src=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F484392_10151463339878446_318693799_n.jpg&size=640%2C480


Best regards