Two-Hand Swords: Highly Specialized or Just Big Longswords?

[Steven Reich]

We're currently working on designing our curriculum for Two-Hand Sword. I've found some good material online in Figueyredo, Godinho, Di Grassi, and Marozzo. But I'm having trouble finding Parades and Manciolino in English. Would you know where to find them in English? Or maybe other good sources in English?

Parades is merely a few sentences describing handful of solo drills, so you're not missing much there (they are very similar to Figueyredo, just not so clear or complete). Manciolino does not have any material for tw0-handed sword, so you're not missing anything (well, not any two-handed sword material) there.

Between Figgy, Godinho, and Marozzo, you should have quite a bit to practice and a significant amount of the known material out there (it's unfortunate that there's so little we've found...so far, anyway).

You should definitely use your longsword experience as a guide, as well.

Steve

[James Brazas]

OK, thanks!

It's good to know that I'm not missing that much.

So Godinho is fairly extensive? Hm. The abridged version I found must be very abridged indeed.

Our plan is to have Two-Hander as an optional weapon for those with longsword experience.

[Steven Reich]

OK, thanks!

It's good to know that I'm not missing that much.

So Godinho is fairly extensive? Hm. The abridged version I found must be very abridged indeed.

Our plan is to have Two-Hander as an optional weapon for those with longsword experience.

I haven't done much of Godinho, so I don't remember how much there is. I think there's a fair amount. I know that there are some people working on a translation, so that should be available someday in the not-too-distant future.

[James Brazas]

Ah, that makes sense. The material I found was probably a translation-in-progress. It's by Tim Rivera. http://spanishsword.org/files/godinho.excerpt.pdf

I'm looking forward to the full translation!

[Frederico Martins]

From at least Figueiredo and Godinho, that are the ones I had a closer look at, it seems to me that they focus alot on multiple opponents, and it is my conviction that is where the benefit of the practice of the montante lies, since most authors with other weapons rarely deal with this situation.

So, instead of seing Figueiredo and Godinho montante Rules as just drills or kind of incomplete sword fighting manuals, I actually see them as very complete multiple opponents works, probably the most complete historical manuals on the subject.

My sugestion is that you take the opportunity, when practicing with montante, to practice that exact situations ( usually one against many, not group fights).

As Steven sayd, doing it againt shorter weapons, makes the practice more balanced, and is probably what historically the manuals are made for.

Alow me some spam, I've started translating a portuguese 19th century walking staff manual, that to not be so much off topic, is in the Iberian tradition, and has situations very similar to the older montante authors, you can have a look at a translated section I'm sharing here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sic ... A4GRs/edit

Just my 2 cents, would really like to see more people practicing multiple opponents

[Steven Reich]

Allow me some spam, I've started translating a Portuguese 19th century walking staff manual, that to not be so much off topic, is in the Iberian tradition, and has situations very similar to the older montante authors, you can have a look at a translated section I'm sharing here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sic ... A4GRs/edit

Very interesting. It does have a definitely familiar ring to it and I think could serve as another datapoint (with the proper "precaution", of course).

I hope you'll continue the translation.

Steve

[Frederico Martins]

Thanks for the support Steven, I actually am practically done with it since it is only 15 pages, I 'm just having trouble with some terms that I don't know what he means, to translate properly.

I have to have those precautions too when I read Godinho and Figueiredo, since a montante is still very different weapon from a wood staff, even if the length is similar.

But curiously, if we look at the exact same situation, for example, fighting in a narrow street with opponents on each side, we have, 4 "solutions"/sequences, Godinho has one, Figueiredo another, just for montante, for the staff we could say we have another 2 at least, one with Ferreira, and my master's(Nuno Russo) tecnical program teaches another way.
They are all different sequences of movements, but all have the same basic concepts that are common among all multiple opponent's rules, within this authors/traditions. You can NOT say that those basic concepts are taken in consideration in most multiple opponents approaches we see on other martial arts.

[Tim Rivera]

Ah, that makes sense. The material I found was probably a translation-in-progress. It's by Tim Rivera. http://spanishsword.org/files/godinho.excerpt.pdf

I'm looking forward to the full translation!

Those are just a few select chapters. Godinho's work is almost 150 folios, no illustrations. The montante section is 15 folios. The translation is done, being revised and polished for publication.

[James Brazas]

That's fantastic news!!!

Thank you for your diligent work on your translation. I'm really looking forward to it! I've been increasingly curious about the Iberian tradition recently.

It seems like the Iberians have more surviving manuals than anyone else outside of the Germans and Italians, but sadly so much of it is still un-translated or hard to find.

When will the full translation of Godinho be available? Where would I be able to find it?

Also, besides the Montante, what else does Godinho cover?

[Tim Rivera]

That's fantastic news!!!

Thank you for your diligent work on your translation. I'm really looking forward to it! I've been increasingly curious about the Iberian tradition recently.

It seems like the Iberians have more surviving manuals than anyone else outside of the Germans and Italians, but sadly so much of it is still un-translated or hard to find.

That's slowly changing. Part of the problem is that most of the Iberian material is in the tradition of la verdadera destreza, which can be difficult to jump right into, so there hasn't been a good starting point for someone who isn't fully invested already. Puck and Mary Curtis have out a primer now (From the Page to the Practice - http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/fr ... ctice.aspx), which will help people make sense of things. Hopefully, translations will start coming a bit more readily soon.

When will the full translation of Godinho be available? Where would I be able to find it?

Haven't hammered out the details yet. Most likely, the English translation will be without a transcription, but with a small interpretive primer. The transcription will come out with a more modern Spanish translation through a different publisher. Hopefully early next year.

Also, besides the Montante, what else does Godinho cover?

The bulk is sword alone, but he also deals with sword and rodela, sword and dagger, and two swords. He also touches briefly on sword and buckler and sword and cloak.

Shame I didn't see this thread earlier - I was just in northern Virginia over Labor Day giving a three-day seminar on Godinho.

Tim

[James Brazas]

Sounds great!

I'll have to check out that book by Puck and Mary Curtis, then.

I'm very much looking forward to your translation of Godinho!

And yes, it is a shame I didn't know about that Godinho seminar here in Virginia. That would have been very interesting. But that's life.

So what manuals would you suggest for someone who is interested in the Iberian tradition? I'm interested both in la Verdadera Destreza and the previous Esgrima Comun/Antigua.

I realize that most probably aren't translated yet, but I would like to get a good idea of what to look for as translations become available.

[Tim Rivera]

So what manuals would you suggest for someone who is interested in the Iberian tradition? I'm interested both in la Verdadera Destreza and the previous Esgrima Comun/Antigua.

I realize that most probably aren't translated yet, but I would like to get a good idea of what to look for as translations become available.

That's a hard question to answer, because a lot of it depends on the time period you're interested in. Pacheco, Ettenhard, and Rada are generally considered the classic authors - they shaped the 'orthodoxy' of la verdadera destreza. My only other suggestion is not to try to cram it into a pan-European theory. That'll only make it harder to understand, and it's already not very straightforward.

Tim

[James Brazas]

Thank you very much! You've been extremely helpful.

Are any of those three manuals in English yet?

As far as the "pan-European" aspect goes, I understand that there are definite similarities and differences between the German, Italian, and Spanish schools. I'm curious about all three, but I fully intend to recognize and respect the fact that they aren't all the same.

Of course, due to the massive amount of materials there are in each tradition, I will probably have to specialize at some point. But I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

That's my perspective at least.

May I ask what masters you would recommend for earlier (pre-Verdadera Destreza) Spanish fencing? You've mentioned Godinho. Are there others or is he the only major surviving author for the older styles?

[Tim Rivera]

Are any of those three manuals in English yet?

Between those three authors, there are about a dozen manuals (I think eight for Pacheco, two for Ettenhard, and two for Rada). To the best of my knowledge, the only verdadera destreza manuals (mostly just partly rather than all) that have been translated to English are:

Part of Carranza's first dialog (1582) - an uninformed translation, probably not very helpful
The third part of Grandezas de la Espada (1600) Pacheco's first book
Metodo de Enseñanza (1639) - Diaz de Viedma
Nearly the first two treatises of Compendio de los Fundamentos (1675) - Ettenhard

All together, not much compared to what exists, but you can probably make sense of it given Puck and Mary's primer. Only Ettenhard's book really covers the basics, but that's not complete.

May I ask what masters you would recommend for earlier (pre-Verdadera Destreza) Spanish fencing? You've mentioned Godinho. Are there others or is he the only major surviving author for the older styles?

Godinho is the only author whose work we've found so far. It's from 1599, so post-Carranza, pre-Pacheco, but in line with what we know of the older stuff.

Tim

[James Brazas]

Wow, a dozen manuals is quite a bit!

So with those four you gave links to (and Puck and Mary's book), an English reader should be able to practice la Verdadera Destreza? That's good to know.

OK, so Godinho sounds like the go-to master for earlier Spanish fencing.

Thank you very much!