Is Joachim Meyer's "longsword" a Two Hand Sword?

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James Brazas
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Is Joachim Meyer's "longsword" a Two Hand Sword?

Postby James Brazas » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:32 pm

Hello everyone!

I've been looking into Joachim Meyer and I have a question.

Are his "longsword" teachings really longsword in the same sense as Ringeck, Talhoffer, Fiore, and so forth?

Or is his longsword closer to the Two-Hand Sword we see in Di Grassi, Marozzo, and Figueredo?

His swords look awfully large for longswords in his illustrations. He is also teaching in the era in which Two-Hand Swords were regularly used by the Landesknecht. I have also heard that he emphasizes cuts and low stances more than earlier longsword manuals.

The main reason why I ask this is that our group would like to start training in Two-Hand Sword. All our material we've learned so far has been German. So it really would be very convenient to be able to continue within the German school for our Two-Hand Sword training rather than have to learn a whole new Iberian or Italian vocabulary.

Any thoughts?

Ian Mac Pharlaine
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Postby Ian Mac Pharlaine » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:13 pm

Hi James.

In regards to your questions, I wouldn't say Meyer's longsword is a true two hander in the sense of a Spadone or Montante. Granted, big longswords did become common during this time and existed along all manner of standard longswords and bastard swords, and Meyer's "style" does seem to favor slightly longer weapons, but I would say that some of his guards and cuts would be impossible with the enormously sized weapons.

As for favoring cuts in the longsword section, this serves a twofold purpose. Firstly it allows Meyer more page space for instruction on various types of cuts and devices that a two handed weapon would favor over the single handers he introduces later along with your standard cuts. Once the rappier and dussack come around, you have their cuts as well as their thrusts included in his teachings (this is of paramount importance in the rappier section).

Also, his lack of thrusting as well as his inclusion of flat strikes is indicative of the social mandates of the period. In some German towns of that era, laws stated that street duels/brawls were to be started with flat strikes to first contact to avoid any unnecessary bloodshed. If the fight was of a more serious nature, the edge would be permitted to conclude upon first blood. If the aggressor continued from the first bleeding wound, then use of the thrust was permitted to put them down once and for all, provided one was willing to face the judicial consequences that would follow from taking a life in a nonsanctioned duel (which could be considered manslaughter or murder depending on your personal conduct and witness testimony).

So with that said, if you want to start two handed sword work, Meyer would be an excellent source to study from, and coubled with an appropriate large sized longsword foil like the Pavel Moc Type C (which is based on a 16th Century original federschwert from Germany, and allows for the flat strikes with much greater ease than other foils out there), you will have a great means to achieve your groups goal. I will advise that if you REALLY want to grasp true two handed sword material, it wouldn't hurt to branch out and study from the aforementioned Italian sources you listed above. You will find greater insight that help not only in studying other facets of the Art, but will help you better understand the material you started with by looking at if from another vantage point! :) At least that's how its worked for me so far!

Good luck in your endeavors, my dear friend!

Regards,
Ian
Societas Scolarium Liberati

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James Brazas
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Postby James Brazas » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:34 pm

OK, thanks!

It sounds like Meyer can be viewed as something between the earlier longsword material and the real Two-Hander material in the Iberian and Italian sources. Is that right?

Also, about what blade length and overall sword length would be typical for what Meyer is trying to teach?

Thanks for your insights and I look forward to studying this material more in depth!

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John Farthing
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Postby John Farthing » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:14 am

It is worth noting that Meyer himself never actually refers to the weapon as a longsword (langeschwert), being content it seems to simply use the term 'sword'.

That said, there is little doubt that these weapons are used most often in two hands. This is in evidence enough within Meyer's illustrations, but in order to better and hopefully more succinctly answer your inquiry, it is highly plausible (if not entirely probable) that Meyer was describing weapons very much akin to a pair held in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. These swords are dated to be roughly contemporary with Meyer himself and the technical data is as follows:

Overall weight per weapon: 2 lbs. 14 ounces

Length of Blade: 40 3/4 inches

Length of Hilt: approx. 9 1/2 inches

Length of Cross (Guard): approx. 8 3/4 inches

Schildt measurements: 3 3/4 long x 2 3/4 wide

The Blade is approximately one inch in width and tapers from a thickness of 1/8 inch at it's base to 1/32 inch at the tip.

Hope that helps.
-John Farthing, Free Scholar
ARMA Deputy Director

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James Brazas
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Postby James Brazas » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:26 pm

Hm. Interesting. Those dimensions are approaching full Two-Hand Sword size.

So if that's true, then Meyer is indeed part-way between what we think of as a "longsword" and what we think of as a true Two Hand Sword.


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