Looking for insight on JC

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Michael Navas
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Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:50 pm

Looking for insight on JC

Postby Michael Navas » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:08 am

So, buzz around the Internet is that JC refuses to spar with other HEMA enthusiasts.

What, if any, truth is there to this? And if true, why?

I have read articles where he paints Asian stylists in a bad light for doing just this, and an interview where he in no uncertain terms presents himself the world's foremost instructor on the subject of medieval fencing. Mastery of which subject he has made quite clear can only be demonstrated under the most authentic and adversarial conditions. Heck, I'm almost inclined to idolize the man for it. In light of this, I feel it is more than fair to investigate any truth there are to these claims.

I realize this is a contentious topic, so beyond the regular rules, I'll just point out that I'll report any bad behavior to the mods in a heartbeat. Offer knowledge and insight if you have it, or stay out if not. Simple.
If this thread is deleted out of hand, however, that will serve as an answer in itself...

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John_Clements
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Re: Looking for insight on JC

Postby John_Clements » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:55 pm

Pffft!
Nonsense.
Absolute crap.
No one has ever made that accusation to me.

Who's saying this?
Where? When?
Why is this not being asked directly to me?
My email is not hidden.
Both the ARMA site and my IDS site has direct contact to me all over it.
Same for my Facebook and Youtube channel.

But, as usual, for some reason, I am the constant target of new snotty rumor mongering by resentful bitter people — who never can offer evidence for their slanders on my reputation and never seem actually contact me in person.

Funny how here I am — developer of an entire training program emphasizing open bouting; being one of the biggest advocates for sparring and free-play in this craft (I’ve authored numerous articles on it); someone who has arranged public Prize Playing events going on 17 years now (one this very weekend, in fact); someone who has crossed weapons with an estimated 3000 people in the last 36 years; and one of the few senior teachers who actually spars with every student who comes to his private school; posted dozens of videos; yet I’m subject to this kind of trolling.

I don’t approve of HEMA-sport.
I don’t advocate contests or tournaments and never have.
Our craft is a fighting discipline not a game of scoring against padded competitors for referees to call points.
But open and realistic sparring as learning tool *IS* an integral and historical part of the authentic Art.
That’s how I’ve always done it and that’s how professional instructors do it.

Mastery of any martial art cannot be demonstrated by doing things softly and slowly. This is true. And I have long pointed out how many traditional Asian style styles suffer from this. But equally true is that modern sportification of historical weapon arts into artificial games does nothing to demonstrate their effectiveness or vitality. If it were otherwise, we'd all be doing sport fencing.

If this is contentious for some people, then too bad.

Incidentally, I have not replied to a thread on the public forum in more than six years now. I have no intention of distracting myself with further replies, so, if you have something more to ask then email me directly.

John Clements
ARMA Director

ps
If the interview you're referring to is not on the ARMA site, then consider that journalists always, but always misquote and mireport those they interview. As a full-time professional fight instructor and researcher, I have indeed put myself up as the world's foremost instructor of Renaissance martial arts (not medieval fencing, there is a distinction). If anyone else wants to claim the mantle it's their prerogative and they can offer up their credentials. As for doing so in "no uncertain terms", that's actually funny because, I've often said that being the "foremost instructor" is something that can only be done in quite uncertain terms.
Do NOT send me private messages via Forum messenger. I NEVER read them. To contact me please use direct email instead.

Michael Navas
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Re: Looking for insight on JC

Postby Michael Navas » Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:46 pm

Cool of you to reply, even if only once.

As for who says these things, I could track down random YouTube commenters, anonymous forums posts, that whole thing with Krzysztof Kruczyński from 2010. But why bother? It's nothing you could trace back to an accountable person, really. Just enough mentions of the same that I happened to be exposed to over a short amount of time, making me wonder what basis existed for this claim.

So, from your answer I will interpret that you are sufficiently open to free-play that if someone from outside ARMA wanted a bout, you'd accommodate them. Only you refuse to do so under their rules and conditions. I guess the latter would be the reason these rumors exist.

As for the interview, I got it from the website, October 2013.

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JC brings up something important here, and I'd like some insight from other ARMAteers on the issue, since he himself is busy:

If by refusing to condone sportifying of martial arts, an ARMA member refuses to bout with other HEMA practitioners under their rulesets, how can the two methods test each other? If the ARMA member insists on using the ruleset he is used to, the outsider can just claim the same indignation and refuse to play by ARMA rules. How are these two stylists supposed to test their mettle without drawn-out considerations of which ruleset is superior or more realistic first, OR actually trying to kill each other? How do you convince another HEMA student that their training methods are phony, while still expecting them to have a friendly bout with you?

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Stacy Clifford
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Re: Looking for insight on JC

Postby Stacy Clifford » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:30 pm

JC brings up something important here, and I'd like some insight from other ARMAteers on the issue, since he himself is busy:

If by refusing to condone sportifying of martial arts, an ARMA member refuses to bout with other HEMA practitioners under their rulesets, how can the two methods test each other? If the ARMA member insists on using the ruleset he is used to, the outsider can just claim the same indignation and refuse to play by ARMA rules. How are these two stylists supposed to test their mettle without drawn-out considerations of which ruleset is superior or more realistic first, OR actually trying to kill each other? How do you convince another HEMA student that their training methods are phony, while still expecting them to have a friendly bout with you?


This is a fair question, but the answer depends a bit on how you define rulesets. In ARMA we try to have as few rules as possible because the purpose of sparring is for learning, not competing. We don't keep score (except in Prize Playings, where it's necessary), we don't use judges, and we don't wear lots of armor or padding. Calling hits is on the honor system between the two fighters, and generally if you're getting beat, nobody needs to tell you that, but good sportsmanship is always required. Most of us protect head and hands of course, but otherwise safety is maintained by good control, and it should be evident from our videos that this does does not diminish the speed and energy of our free-play in any significant way. In my 15 years of doing this, I can count the number of serious injuries I have seen or even heard about in ARMA on one hand and have fingers left over, so I believe our method to be effective. We try not to restrict technique any more than necessary (if you're new, don't thrust until you learn how, and a few techniques that really can't be controlled in any way and still be useful). In these respects, I think most other groups out there should be able to get along with us and spar in a constructive and enjoyable manner. Regarding padding, we won't stop anybody from wearing as much as they feel necessary, but we will still expect you to not try and break us, and we'll do the same.

There are a few rules, particularly the "afterblow" and grappling rules, which would certainly require some discussion to come to agreement on. My personal view is that, as long as you can explain to me clearly the training value of what you do, then I am willing to try it your way for a few rounds if you are willing to try it my way for a few rounds. We have a few guidelines of our own for things like double kills, and we are happy to explain our reasoning behind them if asked.

The last thing, and the one we won't compromise on any more, is equipment. We spar with wood or steel. We tried the plastic wasters for a couple of years back when they first became popular and found them to inaccurate in behavior and inadequate for what we consider to be realistic training, so we will not use them any more. If that is a point of contention, then we'll just have to say so be it.

Ultimately, good sparring requires respect for your opponent, respect for the Art, and testing your skill as much as possible. If you can agree with us on that, then we can find a way to give each other a good fight.
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Ben Strickling
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Re: Looking for insight on JC

Postby Ben Strickling » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:09 am

In ARMA we try to have as few rules as possible because the purpose of sparring is for learning, not competing. We don't keep score (except in Prize Playings, where it's necessary), we don't use judges, and we don't wear lots of armor or padding. Calling hits is on the honor system between the two fighters, and generally if you're getting beat, nobody needs to tell you that, but good sportsmanship is always required.


Great response. This is exactly how 99% of HEMA groups I've visited spar and train, even those who have members who also compete. In general sparring should always be a training tool, not the end goal in and of itself. In spite what the internet says, and in spite of some differences in how we approach this art, I think most serious clubs see eye to eye on this. It's also important to not take the very public face of tournament fighting as a representative sample of what most actual training looks like.

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Ben Strickling
Triangle Sword Guild


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