Vom Tag;"on" the shoulder or "over"

[Donald Lepping]

Hi John.
We use shinai here in our 4 member group. I despise the things, but one is always handy in case I want to illustrate to someone what a technique might look like with speed and contact. It is always with the knowledge that the person still holding the waster be completely passive and mindful about my lack of defense while showing something.

Shinai tend to really distort distance, since only the largest of them can approach what is needed in reach. Therefore we don't spar much with them anymore unless we are doing specific exercises that might need light potential contact, ie; "sticky sword excersizes" for binden, etc.

Still, I think shinai are as dangerous as anything else- you're still arming two primates with sticks- and we've had at least one eye injury and several other scares. I don't use them now other than a teaching tool because their "safeness" seems to always be overrated. Invariably training partners get tired and careless and all one needs to do is jam the "safe" shinai into the base of an unprotected throat or into an eye hard enough.

I always have one around to swat at someone while they only and carefully defend themselves with a steel replica, or to utililize as above, so I'd recommend one for a group. Spend 2-3 times as much and get a waster. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[GaryGrzybek]

True, resting those big swords on the shoulder makes sense.

I have yet to try this with a longsword to any degree but it does seem to be slower to react.

[GaryGrzybek]

Shane,

Your right, I forgot about the zwerchau. But I havent seen any advantage to resting the flat on the shoulder.

[claus drexler]

Hi everybody!

please allow me to step in your discussion.

First of all I would like to direct you to SFI, where the same question has been discussed.
BTW, Jake´s very first posting was excellent and IMO nothing more to say about this topic.

Nevertheless some basic things:

1. The manuals (Danzig) advice to hold the sword “an der achsel”.
IMO that has to be translated as “at the shoulder”.

2. That said, you have the freedom to lean the short edge against the shoulder or not => personal preference;
no manuscript gives any rule, wether to rest it on the shoulder or not.

3. As Jake already pointed out, you only use Vom-Tag in the Zufechten situation, when you are about to engage. Thus it is not too important if I place the sword on the shoulder or not.

4. After exchanging the first cuts, the swords probably meet the one way or the other and other fighting positions become more important, that is Ochs, Pflug.

5. I like to rest the short edge in vom-Tag, because that’s a relaxed stance with the ability to quickly launch any cut I want to, without telegraphing. At least I feel comfortable with it.

6. Hut vom Tag: you do not rest the flat of the blade on your shoulder. Never!
You try to align your edge in direction of your opponent not your own throat..! <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
A Zwerch is a good cut, but nevertheless a special one. You do not handle special cases as general rules.

7. If you like to execute a Zwerch you do nothing else than push your hands from Vom-Tag to Ochs left. While pushing your hands put the thumb on the flat and the cut will be executed the right way (quite) automatically.

8. Do not waste your time with searching for pictures too much, concentrate more on the text. As John said, pictures show the reality of the painter (who must not necessarily have been a fencer) and the pictures “setting in the life” has to be taken into account.

9. Use the Vom-Tag as a multi-tool: you can launch: Zornhau, Krumphau, Zwerchhau, Scheitelhau, Schielhau and all “normal” cuts like Oberhau and Unterhau without any problem.
Thus vom-Tag is an ideal position in Zufechten, because the opponent does not know which of the said cuts you are going to perform.

10. anything forgotten…?
Somebody mentioned "posta di donna". I think I am not mistaken that this is an Italian thing belonging to an Italian fighting system. Vom-Tag is part of the Liechtenauer fighting system and has therefore be discussed and explained only within this system. Mixing systems with different technical terms does not ease the whole understanding, as mixing English and Spanish words in one sentence does not ease the understanding for a French speaker.


Hope that helps,

best,
Claus
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[GaryGrzybek]

Excellent Claus!

That provides a very clear understanding of this position and it's potential.

My only concern is what John said about launching an attack from the shoulder being slow or telegraphed.

In more detail, how do you deal with this?

[Webmaster]

Claus,

Your post is well thought out, but regarding point #3, I have to respectfully disagree:

3. As Jake already pointed out, you only use Vom-Tag in the Zufechten situation, when you are about to engage. Thus it is not too important if I place the sword on the shoulder or not.

We generally define zuefechten as the distance at which one passing step will bring you into cutting range. Since the same goes for your opponent, it does matter whether or not you place the sword on your shoulder. We have tested this a lot (we were just working on it last night, actually), and there is no way to get around the fact that there is a time difference created by the extra few inches the sword has to be lifted to get it off the shoulder and into a full-arm cut versus holding it above the shoulder next to the head. Zuefechten is just far enough away to give your opponent time to read your intentions and just close enough for him to do something about it, and you don't want to give away any extra time if it can be avoided.

Also, with regard to making other cuts from this vom tag, if you are resting the blade on your shoulder and intend to make a cut from underneath, then your shoulder is physically in the way of your doing so. You have to move the blade out to the side before it can sweep down, which again is inefficient. By holding it above the shoulder, your arms are in a position to begin a downward arc outside the shoulder without any initial lateral movement.

At any rate, whether or not the extra movement telegraphs which direction you're about to cut from, it is nonetheless extra movement required to make the same action, and thus it is slower and gives your opponent more time to react and counter. The shoulder rest may be a valid interpretation of some texts (though not necessarily all), but in my opinion the dictates of efficiency say it is not the best application of the guard.

[John_Clements]

Hi Jake,
We were playing with these Miesterhau from the on shoulder position some this weekend using a sharp Del Tin warsword against a fresh killed deer. There was little question it resulted in weaker cuts than when held higher aloft over the shoulder (for that matter, just as holding it over the head is also stronger and has greater reach than over the shoulder). It's just simple bio mechanics in my opinion. Also, as Stacy himself already commented, on the shoulder does not permit a reverse short edge unterhau.

Claus, Nice to hear from you again after so long. Thanks for your thoughts.
I find the on shoulder position telegraphs my opponent's intention to me as well as limits his action to a more predictable path. Since in ARMA Houston we often begin our free-play sparring from well outside zuefechten and charge by intently rushing in and striking, it makes quite a difference in the timing.

Re the Fiore reference, that was included becuase of the similiarity of his over the shoulder postion with this one.

JC

p.s.
no "rebuff" intended, Jake, sorry, just trying to add more to discussion

[Jake_Norwood]

John-

I'm not quite sure why that was directed at me. Nothing I said invokes rebuff, but rather attempts to take into account possible "why"s.

Claus, etc -
I never said that Vom Tag was only for zufechten, but that an on-the-shoulder "resting" position could only be used in such a situation. One "passes through" vom tag very frequently
in krieg, when executing rundstriche (sp?) or flowing off.

Jake

[claus drexler]

Jake,

right, I said, that vom Tag is only for Zufechten and I agree with you that the rest-on-the-shoulder-Tag could only be used in such a situation.

To argue on the same basis: Stacy explained above, that she is using a different definition of the technical term Zufechten, than the historical manuscripts do. You too?
Zufechten in fact is the phase of a fight you approach the opponent until you are in the binding. (The number of passing steps to reach the opponent is not important).
From there on the socalled Krieg = Winden and its applications starts.

Thus the Hut vom Tag - from where you mainly execute cuts - is predominantly used in Zufechten and not in the Krieg situation.

Best
Claus
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Ochs - historische Kampfkünste e.V.
HEMAC-Member

[claus drexler]

Stacy,

I agree to disagree <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

We generally define zuefechten as the distance at which one passing step will bring you into cutting range.

With all due respect, this definition is plain wrong in regard to Liechtenauer´s fighting system, which we are discussing at the moment.
The term “Zufechten” is not defined as a distance of a certain number of passing steps. Zufechten is the whole action, preliminaries until you get into the binding.
Honestly, it is quite hard to explain things, when you use common technical terms differently.

Zuefechten is just far enough away to give your opponent time to read your intentions and just close enough for him to do something about it, and you don't want to give away any extra time if it can be avoided.

See above. We talk of different things.

Also, with regard to making other cuts from this vom tag, if you are resting the blade on your shoulder and intend to make a cut from underneath, then your shoulder is physically in the way of your doing so. You have to move the blade out to the side before it can sweep down, which again is inefficient.

How do you perform the hut vom Tag?
Are there any photos online, that I can see your actual performance of this stance?
When I stand in the basic version of vom Tag, my left leg and left shoulder are leading and thus my body is positioned with a 45° angle to a frontline. To execute an Unterhau with the long edge leading you have only to drop the blade slightly backwards (in a 45° angle of course), cut and step with your right foot forward. No moving aside of blade or shoulder and no telegraphing, no lifting of the sword and no time loss.
I wish I could show you things and not try to describe what I mean.

Pictorial evidence:
If you like, look at the pic of vom Tag in the Danzig manuscript. The depicted fighter is holding the sword clearly at the shoulder, crossguard at armpit level.

At any rate, whether or not the extra movement telegraphs which direction you're about to cut from, it is nonetheless extra movement required to make the same action, and thus it is slower and gives your opponent more time to react and counter.

I totally agree with you if there would be extra movement. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

The shoulder rest may be a valid interpretation of some texts (though not necessarily all), but in my opinion the dictates of efficiency say it is not the best application of the guard.

Well, I really often hear that. And I as often answer: he who thinks the techniques explained in the manuscripts do not work or are inefficient, has just not understood the text.
Then, I just spoke of the Danzig manual and not of “some texts” and in addition I only said, that the manuals do indeed say nothing about resting on the shoulder or not.
Second thing, I did say, that Danzig advises and depicts to hold the sword “at the shoulder” and not above or over.

Best,
Claus
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Ochs - historische Kampfkünste e.v.
HEMAC-Member

[claus drexler]

Hi John (and Gary),

John wrote: We were playing with these Miesterhau from the on shoulder position some this weekend using a sharp Del Tin warsword against a fresh killed deer. There was little question it resulted in weaker cuts than when held higher aloft over the shoulder

John, this result was not in question.

I think the key to solve the how-to-cut-a-zorn-efficiently-question is:

Danzig quotation, page 11r:

„Glosa / Merck daß ist / wenn du mit dem zu vechten zu im kumpst / waß du den vechten wild daß treib mit gantzer sterck deß leibs / und haew im do mit nahent ein zu kopf / und zu leib /“

Danzig and others say (sorry for repeating that phrase every now and then), that you should use the strength of your whole body to cut, emphasize on “whole body”.
But it says not: use the maximum power and strength with every cut. Everything overdone, wastes energy and might be exploited by my opponent.
A slight distinction. Important are arms, legs, feet and hands, not just the arms and shoulders.

I am well aware that ARMA has a different opinion about the use of strength, thus it is up to you to use the following things or not. Just my two cents.

Starting Zorn at the shoulder is perhaps not the strongest version thinkable, but it is not necessary to cut as strong as my arms can, see the quotation above.
You IMO really do not need to cut an opponent in two parts to harm him efficiently (see Deer example). We talk of Blosfechten, where no armour is worn and thus a cut 2 cm deep at the throat is more than needed to kill.

And remember the insulting wording in manuscripts for fencers who rely only on strength: “Büffelschlag” (lit. Buffalo-Blow) or “Bauernschlag” (lit. Peasant-Blow).
Honestly, I do not want to be compared with a pitchfork swinging peasant when it comes to fencing abilities. Do you? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

More important: Cutting with too much strength is the reason for not achieving a binding proper.
What you miss with overdoing IE the use of strength are all the tiny and quick moves you need in the binding/in Krieg. You simply cannot “Fühlen”, which is essential to react or act against an opponent when the blades are crossed.

Best,
Claus
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HEMAC-Member

[Guest]

I just read your posts again and I feel like an idiot. I missed the entire point! I need to read things more carefully, and I need to play around with the vom tag on the shoulder with Stu some more before I make any more comments on the subject.

[claus drexler]

Hi Stewart,

I agree with Stacy in that being one step out of range can be considered as a part of Zufechten

Sure.

As for the actual topic at hand... I still have some experiments that I want to do, but I don't really like the on the shoulder position once I am in a closer Zufechten range

I don´t want to convince anybody of my personal view of things. I just give some points to consider.
And as said before, I prefer that resting on the shoulder, but that is definitely not a dogma and thus free for personal preference as long as it is done according to the manuals.

Best
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Ochs - historische Kampfkünste e.V.
HEMAC-Member

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi All,

I really don't understand this preoccupation with speed that some of you have.

The few inches of difference between an upright and a shoulder ward are not going to make a difference in a fight where you must take a step to hit the other guy.

Your arms cannot arrive at the target before you feet put you in distance and Claus is right, you don't want to be a buffalo.

I am beginning to think this might actually be a footwork thing. Could someone from ARMA give me the lowdown on the footwork used by both attacker and defender when one strikes an oberhau rechts and the other responds with a Zornhau?

First some background to my theory:
In no form of fencing other than certain interpretations of the Lichtenauer system is this the rule. Even in Italian rapier fencing where much of the fight can happen with the blades deeply engaged necessitating a very large disengagement to attack, the fight still happens at a distance where an attacker must put in a foot to hit the other guy other wise the fight is over pretty quickly and the victory goes either to the guy that moved first or the combatants kill each other.
The same applies with Silver (he warns about this), all English backsword I have read, all smallsword manuals I have read, all quarterstaff manuals I have read, La Canne, Singlestick and probably more if I thought about it.

Here's my logic as to why many are doing something wrong in their German Longsword fencing.
If I am going to attack you on a pass then for every inch I go off the line, I lose some forward distance on my attack. This means I have to be closer to my opponent (possibly in close distance) in order to attack. The implication here is obvious. If one guy is trying to get into distance to make an attack where he wishes to move around a circle then the other guy can attack straight down the line before the first guy is set providing he knows his distance well.

Now if chap A cuts from his right shoulder on a right foot pass forward and right and chap B does the same then we end up unfortunately in close distance. The man who strikes first in close distance will win because there is not time for a defence at this distance unless there is a good true cross between the blades. (Which in a Zornhau vs Oberhau bind according to this interpretation there is not as each has tried to cut through longpoint and we therefore have a shallow engagement)

One way around this may be for one combatant to move more sideways than forwards. The trouble with this is that unless he leaps and twists in the air, his hips will not be facing the point of contact as he cuts across himself in what I suppose equates to kind of a Krumphau position all the time which to my mind cannot be correct.

Now I am not entirely sure which interpretation I do like yet, but I would like to see what holes people can pick in the above.

To be honest, the only way I have ever been able to get any of the binding and winding plays to actually work is if the attacker passes straight in cutting on about a 15 degree angle and the defender passes straight back (shorter though). Incidentally this gives you all the time in the world for a Zornhau counter. I must give credit to Paul Wagner for this particular interpretation. This combination of footwork and striking leads to a nice soft bind at a distance where you have time to feel and then make a decision about what to do am schwert due to distance. At close distance we used to *maybe* have time for one wind. A counterwind from here was a pipe dream <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />.

The OODA loop definitely comes into play here, whenever you make a movement you go though four steps Observation (via fuhlen if you like), Orientation Decision, Action. I feel that there is no way that you can make these types of decisions if you end up at close distance.

Please offer some criticism.
Cheers,
Stu.