Historical swordplay in Lord of the Rings???

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Casper,

And some later manuals taught against it.

This is news to me. I would be very interested to read these references if they are on line or if you could quote for me if they aren't. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned this before.
Cheers,
Stu.

[John_Clements]

None of these later fencing manuals, it must be pointed out, taught using edge on edge defense in general, but in specific. That is, they were adamant that the lower end of the blade nearest the hilt, the last quarter where its blade is typically unsharpened and not used for cutting, be employed against the opponent's own lower blade end. Thus, you have the strongest part of the defending blade intercepting the slowest moving and weakest hitting part of the attacking blade. This is a far cry from the terrible and ridiculous edge on edge "anywhere you can" kind of parrying used in modern saber fencing and stage/theatrical combat ---neither of which reflect real combat.

In the English army’s 1796 Rules and Regulations for the Sword Exercise of the Cavalry, we have among clearest examples of a method that uses the flat and not the edge to parry with: “The utmost attention must be paid not to oppose the edge to the enemy’s sabre when it can be avoided; but the bevel: which can only be done, by placing the thumb between the back plate and the ear of the sword, and keeping it firm in that position, the arm to be properly distended, for the purpose of resisting the force of the blow.” Bevel in this case refers to the slant or flat portion nearest the back edge and is even indicated by a diagram in the text. Additionally, in the Instruction pour la cavalerie (“Instruction for the Cavalry”), first published in Berlin, 1796, all the parries are apparently made with the flat or with the back of the saber. There are others too, which will appear in one of my future books.

JC

[Guest]

Randall Pleasant wrote:

It is true that some 18th & 19th century manuals (saber, etc.) do teach edge-to-edge, but these are outside the time period we study. However, non of the Medieval & Renaissance manueal dealing with true cutting swords (rapier not included) teach edge-to-edge.

Hi Randall,

Actually, at least Silver (16th to 17th century) does. And his primary weapon definitely wasn't the rapier, either...

John Clements wrote:

This is a far cry from the terrible and ridiculous edge on edge "anywhere you can" kind of parrying used in modern saber fencing and stage/theatrical combat ---neither of which reflect real combat.

John,

Yes, true. However, my point (the uselessness of which I'm just starting to realise) was that edge-to-edge did exist historically.


Oh, I think I've made some kind of a record today... I somehow managed to spark two edge vs. flat debates without even realising it. Might be the time to start proof-reading my posts for things like this...

[MurrayMoore]

"I would have expected better with John Howe being involved.
Steve"

My oldest kid checked out a book about the making of the movie. It was either Howe or Alan Lee who had a VERY good quote about swordwork - so I think Anderson had more to do with the swordwork than Howe did in the movie.

Also, the Aragorn scene on Weathertop was VMortensen's first day on the set - hence the dorky one handed elbow chops.

[James Hudec]

If there's no prohibition against bringing up an old thread, I'd be interested to hear your opinions on how armoured combat was portayed in the films, specifically the Gondorians.

[Casper Bradak]

It wasn't. They had guys in armour, fighting, though.

[JeanryChandler]

I liked LOTR and tried not to think about technical stuff, but I was really bothered by the Gondor soldiers cavalry charge, with no lances !!!?? Also Aragorn unarmored (or certainly unhelmeted) wading into a dozen opponents laying about himself confidently...

On the other hand, realisitic or not, I thoroughly enjoyed the charge by the Rohirium (whose costumes and armor I liked a lot generally) the scene where the king clashes his sword against everyones spears and says his little speach, followed by the charge, will stand in my memory as one of my favorite film moments.

Jeanry

[JohnGallego]

I liked the speech and enjoyed the mood of that particular scene a lot, but the charge itself...ARGH! Where were the formations? They were just a mob of horses surging forward without discipline and in complete disarray, they should have been cut to pieces.

[Allen Johnson]

Yeah, for some reason in 99.9% of movies that have people in armor- it sure dosent seem to matter at all. I cant recall a film where someone in plate or mail has taken a hit and been ok. I seem to recall several scenes in LOTR where someone will get hit in the gut (right on their chest plate) only to double over and die. If people can cut through it that easy, why bother?

[JeanryChandler]

That is one of my pet peeves!

Hollywood puts armor on the bad guys and the cannon fodder as a uniform. Dont you just love that light draw-cut across the mailed abdomen which slays instnatly? I found it especially annoying in Star Wars... why do the Imperial Stormtroopers wear all that armor when it's not only no use vs. lasers, a teddy bear can knock you out with a two by four in it....

Jeanry

[Shane Smith]

I cant recall a film where someone in plate or mail has taken a hit and been ok.

Frodo took a polearm to the chest that didn't penetrate his maille in the least in the mines of Moria...But now back to historical accuracy...For me as an armoured fencing enthusiast, it just makes my skin crawl whenever I see a drawcut to the mid-section kill an armoured opponent. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

Heh, in reality, as strong as it was, it would've made a nice bodybag.

[James Hudec]

Unfortunately, I don't have much understanding of the mechanics of fighting in armour, but a couple of things that I thought were rather stupid were that the armoured Gondorians would go down when tapped on the forearm by a mace, or alternatively swing at an orc and miss, and then stand about for a few moments waiting to be hit.

[Craig Peters]

I agree that the plate armour for the Gondorians was a lot more feeble in numerous instances than plate would actually be. In some instances, a single orc managed to slay a man of Gondor by striking him once with a weapon, and this seemed highly improbable at times. More than likely, the orcs would probably have to mob the men in plate armour and overwhelm them in order to effectively take them down. Otherwise, the men of Gondor should have been able to put up a much stiffer resistance in some cases.

Also, there's no indication of half-swording or modifying techniques in order to allow for harnischfechten, so in terms of historical accuracy the Lord of the Rings is really quite poor in this regard.

[Martin,Younger]

I remimber on seen with awyan she from rohain. it is the seen were she pulls out a sword from a chest and i might call it a fulish and it looks like two unterhaes and i remimber this becouse it looks like she ends up in window but the she spinnes around and goes edge to edge with ariagon and douse this spin thing with the sword.