Help wanted with falchions

[Steven Engelbach]

I think that Marcelli's 1686 manuscript has a section that can provide some advice on the use of this weapon. He details the use of a weapon he calls the "sciabla" that, by his description, sounds an awful lot like a falchion. However, this text is in Italian, and I don't know of any English translations currently available (I'm considering doing one myself, but considering the size of the book, it wouldn't be done for years).

Steve

[Matt Shields]

Aren't Falchions almost always significantly shorter? I've never seen a messer under 36".

Not according to Peter Johnson.
Albion Next Generation "Meister" (Grossemesser)
Albion Next Generation "Vassal" (Falchion)

[Derek Gulas]

Thanks Jake, that's pretty interesting. You mentioned that Messers were used for hunting and personal defence. Was the Messer a common sight on the battlefield, or were they mainly used for duelling or fighting off thieves while travelling etc?

Thanks again

[scott adair]

I have a large article on the history of falchions and related sword types in preparation. Likely it will be the most detailed yet written on the subject. I have a lot of new infor but I've not encountered any specific references to them in the War of the Roses.

John,

From your research on falchions and messers does it appear that they developed from seaxes? My resources are limited but it would seem logical that the falcata/kopis/machiera led to the seax or sax and that this in turn led to the development of messers and falchions. Were the early forms developed more as everyday tools and then adapted for dual purposes?

Do I remember correctly that you once said that such blades tend to cut gambesons better than double edged blades? If double edged blades were more common then this could help account for the popularity of gambesons. Of course if one suspected that he would encounter men wearing gambesons as a primary defense then carrying a falshion or messer would seem to be sound wisdom.

I look forward to seeing what you have learned!

Scott Adair

[Casper Bradak]

I agree that the true falchion was a more exclusive weapon of war, while the messer was more dual purpose, but I think that the differences in pommel shape/construction are stylistic and aesthetic with no real difference in use or function, likewise, whatever speculation on their origin, no longer had an effect on their use.

"Do I remember correctly that you once said that such blades tend to cut gambesons better than double edged blades?"

He's mentioned that he believes curved blades cut cloth better that straight ones. Like it has been said, some of these weapons had straight blades, and some even had sharp false edges.

[JeanryChandler]

That's very interesting, I hadn't seen those yet. But with all due respect to mr Johnson, who knows far more about weapons than I, the dimensions of his messer is apparently deduced from a few sketches, not from any surviving original. All the messers I've seen (there are several antiques in the myarmoury forum) are longer and narrower. I'm not sure about the shape of the blade either, it looks more like a falchion to me! I'll be verry eager to read Johns article and find out more about it.

DB

[JeanryChandler]

I don't mean to speak for Jake, but there did seem to be at least two distinct sub-types of messers, the Kriegsmesser was apparently primarily a military weapon. You see it in many woodcuts, drawings and paintings from the era frequently being carried by professional mercenaries.

There are two other weapons which I have seen in period art quite a bit, and some surviving examples of, which seem to be in this same family if you will. One is the Swiss Schwyzersabel (sp?) which is a curved, narrow bladed, two handed saber, seemingly single edged, the other is a curved, broad bladed two handed saber used by hungarian mercenaries in the late renaissance.

Does anyone know anything about the actual use and function of these two weapons?

DB

[Casper Bradak]

"Does anyone know anything about the actual use and function of these two weapons?"

Judging by the use of the messer in the manuals, and the overall shape of the weapons, their popularity and supposed lack of instructional material, they're probably used just like their double edged counter parts, with the exception of a blunt side.
Their function should be obvious enough. I assume they were developed and used to maim and kill.

[JeanryChandler]

People seem to discount this two edge versus single edge thing, I've seen it a lot in EMA vs WMA discussions, but my admittedly limted longsword experience leads me to believe that the false edge cuts, the 'twitch' cuts etc, lend the two edged swords a huge advantage. I find this especially true for two handed weapons. It is this false edge cut that I feel puts the longsword in kind of a 'super weapon' category over all other swords.

Ironically, I find the messer a more defensive weapon, because I find the lack of a false edge limits offensive ability and because I can do some defensive parries that take advantage of the back of the blade. This would tie in with the whole idea of the messer being a self defense weapon in the literal sense.

Of course I could be way, way off base here <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

What do you think Jake? I know you like the messer almost as much as the longsword.

DB

[Casper Bradak]

I think the differences in offensive/defensive capacity are purely personal and not influenced by the weapons in this case. They are what you make it. (My opinion).
I can't think of any "new" defenses with the blade that would take particular advantage of a dull false edge, unless you're simply edge blocking with it, other than just improving its durability.
I do think that 2 edges make many techniques deadlier, but techniques with a likely dull false edge can be done identically, and crush rather than cut. Master Lekuchners messer manual for example, uses several techniques derived from 2 edged weapons that utilize the false edge in striking, but are still very effective. They would be even moreso with a single edged blade used in 2 hands, since they are also longsword techniques.
I can see it being a common self defense weapon because of its capacity for a powerful cut and the reduced need for a strong taper when you're probably only going to fight unarmored individuals. This also makes the false edge strikes viable.

[Jake_Norwood]

Every longsword cut and technique--I mean every one--seems to apply to the messer (with one hand!). I believe that the term "short edge" comes from the "clipped edge" on the messer, which would enable any short edge technique as well. This makes the messer rather different in use from the falchion, I believe, although admittedly we lack much in the way of manuals covering the falchion.

I find the messer to be more agressive in nature than the longsword, probably as a reflection of the need to "get closer" with a weapon referred to as a knife.

Jake

[JeanryChandler]

Sounds like i'm going to have to learn to false edge cut with one hand, that will be an interesting challenge. Need to work on my thumbed grip!

JR

[Bart Walczak]

The difference between falchion and messer is the grip and it comes from the dispute between swordmakers and knifemakers who would be allowed to produce a single-edged (well, mostly) blade.

Falchion is the same type of weapon as messer, only it has a sword grip, while messer has a knife grip.

Best regards
Bart

[Casper Bradak]

That's interesting. It would explain the terminology. So if that's the case, it would be more of a legal/business issue, with no real effect on the purchasers or their use.

[Bart Walczak]

Well, there are sometimes some differences in the size of the top portions of the blade (falchions sometimes are really wide at the end) but generally it's a political matter.

BTW, does anyone know an english equivalent of the name messer?

And to cause more confusion, there is a Polish non-technical source from 1509 that calls langes messer a saber.

Best regards
Bart