the thrust in Longsword combat

[JeffGentry]

Hello folk's

Well i have been noticing lately that in padded sparring i am starting to see more thrust Opportunities and a little success when i use it, could this be due to gained experience or is it more just luck.

i have been reading Meyer alot and trying to see the four opening's and using the knowledge of what gaurd they are in and what they can do to strike me from those gaurd's and i am occasionaly seeing the opportunity for a thrust to the chest, stomach, and a couple week's ago the face(surprised myself when it actualy hit).

How viable is the thrust in longsword fencing?

[KatherineJohnson]

Jeff,

I think the thrust is extremely viable in longsword combat and I've used it to pretty good success myself. I also find that as I do more thrusting in my own sword play I become better at "reading" the intentions of others when they intend to thrust and am better able to counter it.

One of my favorite tactics is to stand in a deep pflug (right leg forward) with the hilt pulled far back to my left hip and throw a standard thrust or two that is a little reserved and not necessarily meant to hit, thereby letting my opponent gauge the distance. I then pass back and move my sword to my right hip, More often then not, my opponent will pursue me, just as I see that he has commited to moving forward I will then release my right hand from the hilt and "pop out" a thrust with my left hand that has tremendous range. This, coupled with the forward motion of my opponent makes for a pretty stout hit (to say the least).

In my opinion the best place to thrust is the face, it's paticularly diffacult to judge and counter face aimed thrusts as compared to torso thrusts.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I totally agree with Katherine, I have been throwing out thrusts quite a bit and have found them very useful. The more you use them, the better and quicker you will become. I recently did some work with Chris and Jared in Wausau. We worked long sword and sword and buckler as well as long sword vs. sword and bucker.

I found the thrust very useful when facing the sword and buckler. I targeted the head, shins, and lower leg quite a bit. I found that keeping the sword and buckler at range is the key to defeating it with the long sword. keep using it I guarantee you will come to love it-Aaron

[Jon Anderson]

I agree as well. I have recently begun this martial art, but I have noticed that at the beginning of a sparring match, a few foynes and thrusts can put the other person on the defensive quickly, and keep them at a distance as well. I usually try to foyne at the throat, since that is a natural spot that will cause someone to react very defensively. It has worked quite well for me, though I am still new to this art.

[John_Clements]

*I've edited this brief and hastily posted message, placing punctuation and a missibg word where they should have been :

It's one of the primary attacks, both Liecthenauer and Fiore list it as very important, and instruct to keep your point aimed at the opponent at most all times. Most swords of the era were aptly designed for strong thrusts. You must practice and train to thrust with the longsword.

JC

[JeffGentry]

Hey all

I do keep my point on my opponent, I even have a little dril going from gaurd to gaurd and keeping my point on a knot in a tree or some other point as i move the sword, i am pretty good at bringing the point to bare very quickly after a deflection or attack.

I guess i am on the right track, when i first started i seemed to get whacked in the head alot when i would thrust, so i guess this is not luck but a sign i am learning which is a good thing.

Thank's for the input guy's.

[KatherineJohnson]

My weakness when thrusting was the arm/hand. Aiming for the face seems to reduce this substantially however.

[Bob Charron]

JC wrote:

"It's one of the primary attacks, both Liecthenauer and Fiore list it as very important and instruct to keep your point aimed at the opponent at all times. Most swords of the era were aptly designed for strong thrusts. You must practice and train in thrust with the longsword."

While Fiore lists thrusts among his seven blows of the sword, and delineates the five paths in which they should be delivered, he *does not* instruct you to keep your point aimed at the opponent at all times. In fact he instructs you in the circumstances in which you should be sure *not* to have point toward your opponent. If you feel there is a quote from the text that indicates this, then please post it and I will admit my error.

To the original poster:

If you are able to see the opportunities, but are having trouble delivering the thrust, then it is most likely fixed with two methods:

1) Make sure that you are fighting always from guard to guard within the system. If you are not in one of the specified guards, you are not prepared to attack or defend properly, and you might not be able to thrust in the available tempo.
2) Make sure your distance is correct. While straight thrusts are easily made long, one must move the high or low thrusts with the feet as much as with the sword, ensuring the proper distance and angle to deliver them.

Most technique problems are fixed with tempo and the feet.

Good luck!

Bob

[Casper Bradak]

Wether he mentioned it or not, it's only sensible in point oriented posta and techniques, at the very least. Lichtenaur for example, didn't mean it literally always, or he wouldn't have had guards such as vom tag or attacks with the edge. But when it is to come into play, in a point oriented guard, or from a bind, like I said, it's only sensible. To do otherwise would likely be a waste of motion, among other things.

[JeffGentry]

hey Bob
You may be right when i first started my foot worked sucked now it just suck's a little less that may be why my thrust is getting better.

Katherine

I didn't think about it before, i can see how it would be disconcerting to have a thrust coming at your face though, i probably do more thrusting than most in my group do so i am not real accustomed to being on the receiving end.

I am getting to like the thrust if i see a chance to use it and get away unharmed i do it, it is very effiecent energy wise it doesn't take much to stab some one as opposed to the energy it take's to throw a zornhau, so i think in that way it is great.

Jeff

[Joe Fults]

Jeff,

Since we seem to be sparring each other a fair bit, I thought I'd throw in my completely novice observation. Everyone in the study group was/is so wrapped up in long and short edges, that I find the thrusts a convenient way to change tempo and keep sparring partners off balance (when used occasionally). Its strange (to me) but there just seem to be certain times when people are open to the thrust. I'm not sure if I'm intuitively recognizing something in stance or spacing (I think it may be spacing), but sometimes I just know a thrust will land if I throw one. Normally, under these circumstance it will too, except when I telegraph it.

That, being very aggressive, and closing to grapple have been my desperation measures to avoid getting knocked silly all the time.

Unfortunately everyone has started to get wise to me. So I've really been working the short edge cuts (at home) to get enough strength to bring them to bear effectively. Hopefully the next round of schoolwork allows enough time to emulate your study and find a few additional tricks that are not regularly used by the group. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey Joe
That is what i mean i am just starting to see the thrust oppertunities, maybe it was the concentration on the fancy stuff that had me distracted.

your on the fast track though your learning quicker than i did i think.

I like when you rush me i have to learn to deal with it, you see that in the real life diary account's and such so it wasn't uncommon, i am getting used ot it dealing with it is something else. lol <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Joe Fults]

Well hitting me with a few more good thrust to the gut when I try to close is going to force me to make some kind of adjustment. BTW all your Meyer reading changed things on me last time out.

[Bob Charron]

Caspar,

My problem is with citing Medieval masters as putting forward advice that they did not put forward. You can't use them as an authority for your own feelings without their having said what you say they said.

It is good scholarship to include the original quote from the source to back your position, and that is what I am encouraging. Otherwise you can mislead others, and misrepresent the masters. The latter is one of the greatest errors we can make as researchers and practitioners, and it must be guarded against. I feel it personally and particularly when it relates to my master, Fiore.

Of course the point being on the opponent is used, and is useful. Your own point is carefully made, and I appreciate it. But what was previously posted is not an unspoken rule in Fiore, nor does the text put it forward as such. It at times advises against it, especially when your opponent holds his point in line and has the longer sword.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Bob
Since it was my thread, i think JC said that( he can correct me if i'm wrong) knowing that i do have a little experience and would know what he meant, I have not read much of Fiore i have been tied up with Meyer so i think now that i am about done with the Meyer longsword have heard alot of good thing's about Fiore and Meyer kind of ignore's the point/thrust i will have a look see at Fiore.


Jeff