New S&B manuscript search

[John_Clements]

Check this out, gorgeous, Italian, said to be 14thc but could be 15th. Note the stances, and right legs forward. Also not the turn of the wrist gripping the buckler (to pull the elbow out of the way of the sword cutting around).

[Brian Hunt]

Wow!

that is beautiful. I take it from the topic that you are searching for the rest of the manual? I sure could wish the pictures in the I33 were that clear and drawn with that nice of perspective. Sure would take some guess work out that manual, especially the part where you could easily tell which foot is supposed to be in front. Sword and Buckler is rapidly becoming one of my favorite weapon styles, so I am really excited about anything new on it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you so much for sharing that.

Brian Hunt.
GFS

[Allen Johnson]

Thanks John! That is beautiful. It's a pity we can't get good prints of these and frame them for display. Great detail on the clothing as well.

[Shane Smith]

We have worked with I-33 a bit in VAB and we had concluded that the right leg was generally forward as seen in the guard plates as a rule(This makes attacking the lead leg much more difficult for your opponent for some reason). The fact that the images above support that so clearly is vindicating. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Matthew_Anderson]

The style of the clothing definately looks 15th century to me. I find a right leg leading stance with the buckler extended very effective for beginning several techniques and seems to protect the lead leg better as Shane mentioned. It is particularily effective when fighting with sword and buckler against longsword. It keeps the longsword fighter from simply reaching out with his longer weapon and slicing the forward leg. In order for him to attack your right leading leg, he has to get past your sword as well, generally a vicious counter-cut to his arm or head can be done before he even gets close to cutting you. of course, you can pass your left leg back and counter cut from a left leg leading stance as well, but it is more difficult to do it quickly enough.

[John_Clements]

Well, the source claims 14th century, so who knows. Either way, it would be only the third Italian fencing work pre-1500 that we know of, and the only one covering Medieval buckler, and both of those make it very significant. Given the quality of the art and form of the figures, I'm giddy.

JC

[Randall Pleasant]

John

How many images are in the manual and how much text. Can't wait to see it.

[GaryGrzybek]

Very nice <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm dying to see more of this.

[John_Clements]

I’ve been able to finally reach a conclusion on this image. Alas, it is not from a Fechtbuch.
After doing some research at the University of Houston the other day with Stew Feil (Senior Free Scholar and Director of our Provo Study Group), I determined it is unfortunately not from an unknown fencing manual. It is a single image on “fencing” from a 14th century health book now in Vienna that was a copy of an earlier French version (itself based on an original Arab work from the 11th century). The French version has the figures in the exact same postures but indoors. The accompanying text merely relates the health benefits of fencing as vigorous exercise.

JC

[John_Clements]

Here is the image from the 14th century French version:

[Jeffrey Hull]

Well, that is interesting. Is not that caption of "Luctatio" equivalent to the term "luctacio" which Walpurgis (I.33) uses for "wrestling"? Perhaps in the French thing it means more generally "struggle". Uncanny. JH

[John_Clements]

Stew mentioned that same connection, but here it clearly means fencing. The accompanying text described in detail and each plate of the work has an image representing its title.
The original work actually predates the I.33 so perhaps the term's meaning altered at some point.

[Brian Hunt]

Luctatio has three basic meanings

1. wrestling - this is the translation used in the I.33
2. struggling
3. 'fighting' or 'fighting against'.

Since fighting can also be interupted as fencing (as in fighting with swords), I would go with that definition.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jeffrey Hull]

John, Stewart, Brian:

Ahhh...It is all clearer now. JH

[steve hick]

Ah ha, so you found it. Congratulations, I await more info when you publish. Please also put something in how you located it. Did you start with a recent Italian book?
Steve