adding weapons?

[KatherineJohnson]

I think the logical progression would be Ringen>>>Roundel>>>Longsword, and then branch into personal interests from there.

Of course, we do things a little differantly in our modern age, generally starting people off with the longsword and then moving on to other stufff.

I think the practice of the roundel and the longsword together provide for a well rounded experiance that has applications in ringen and in other weapons we might choose to study.

I agree that the messer is a good addition to the longsword aswell and works quite well from the base the longsword establishes.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hey Jaron, I have started to work the dagger quite a bit. In my florysh sets I'll sometimes purposefully lose the sword, and work directly into the dagger, as I will keep it on my back as I am using the sword. I like to work them both together, as it gives you practice at the transition.

I also agree that some ringen should be done at the same time, it only makes sense to me, order of battle might be: Spear, Sword, Ringen, Dagger. --Aaron

[Ben Kamphaus]

It seems to me that which weapons you choose to do depends entirely on what your focus is. First of all, I think ringen should be done early on, since many weapon techniques may often shift to grappling. Beyond that... ringen and rondel / dagger certainly do have more use in real world situations. But if your purpose is studying things because of how they were studied in the past, the spear or general polearms are by far the most common of local militias and the largest numbre of combatants on the field. Next to that, probably sword and shield, or sword and buckler, or axe. For a more personal combat aspect, rapier or staff, or something that is a famous gentlemanly or civilian sort of weapon.

Anyways, that's all I have to throw in, though as an aside, are there any ARMA members in Buffalo? I had heard something about their being an upstate NY group before, and I'm currently in Buffalo visiting a university, and if there is, it'd be great to meet with someone in ARMA who is a bit more established than me and the guy I'm working with in Oklahoma (though I'm just an applicant atm).

[Stacy Clifford]

The only master I recall specifically teaching in a particular sequence is Fiore (I could be wrong, though). Fiore starts with wrestling, then adds a short rod, switches to dagger and then moves on to sword and then pole arms. As I recall from Bob Charon's seminar, Fiore's instructions progressed very logically, with each section building on knowledge from the previous one. While I wouldn't call Fiore's fighting a "style", I would definitely say he had a well organized teaching method.

[Craig Peters]

then adds a short rod

A short rod?

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the well founded advice. I am thinking the rondel in light of all this (although it looks like they all are viable options) since: 1. It blends in with my previous background in EMA grappling, 2. It is a great companion to the longsword (which I have done for the past year or so), 3. there is manual material available, 4. we are playing around with rondels (well actually rolled up magazines in duct tape, as training rondels) a bit now and 4. it has some modern application (althought this is tertiary, since the longsword isn't exactly a common item <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Rob Lovett]

Sorry Stacy, I disagree.
Fiore, although two of his MS are well laid out documents, and can provide an interesting didactic approach, is in fact depicting a system and a systematic approach. What you do with one weapon you do with another weapon, allowing for slight variation depending upon how the differences in weapon mutate the basic technique.
I would go as far to say that Fiore's system is one of the most complete and would rate it with the escrima systems in this regard.

The short rod is called a Bastoncello, and is a short stick. An interesting weapon and shows some cool things that can be transferred to other parts of the system.

Take care,
Rob

[J.Amiel_Angeles]

I would like to point to the training progression of the oldest of the Koryus, that of tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu, which is still taught in the same way that it was about 500 years ago (I joined a dojo recently because, to my everlasting frustration, there are absolutely no WMA schools in the area).

They start with the sword, before moving on to the bo, then the naginata and followed by unarmed grappling, armoured or not (there are more after, and sub-categories, but I've not been taught them yet). According to my sempai, this is an intentional progression. I'm hardly an expert on either this or WMA, but I thought I saw some similarity here to the sequence or at least choice of weapons in the German fechtbuchen.

Either way, it does seem as if the two-handed sword is a good basis.

[Stacy Clifford]

Rob,

I think the only thing we're disagreeing over here is our definitions of "style" and "system". I agree completely that Fiore has a very systematic way of teaching you the techniques of fighting with different weapons, but I don't call it a "style" because the end result is you doing most of the same moves everybody else in Europe is doing. It's the way of learning and understanding the techniques that appears different to me. I've seen Bob Charon teach Fiore's dagger and Bart Walczak teach Codex Wallerstein's dagger, and in terms of execution there was virtually no difference in most of the techniques, even though I don't think these two guys have ever met or collaborated, and I rather doubt the two masters did either. We have another long, protracted thread on style vs. system and other terms, though, so I'm not going to drag this topic out any further.

[Ryan Ricks]

well actually rolled up magazines in duct tape, as training rondels

now there's a great idea! does it hurt much to get stabbed with one?

ryan

[KatherineJohnson]

Hi Ryan,

I know you didnt ask me, But I've used rolled up magazine training daggers to.

It doesnt hurt terribly, but the magazines have very little give to them. I would not recommend sparring hard with them rolled up tightly. In a pinch I have only rolled up a "handle" part and kind of flayed the end out so that it would lessen the impact, but they are very unrealistic...dont last long in sparring, and it looks silly.

A better option would be to create two seperate training tools, one for sparring and one for drilling.

The drilling tool is easy. Buy a wooden dowel, cut it down to about 12 inches. Voila. Instant dagger trainer.

The sparring daggers are a little more intensive. Basically it's a wooden dowel wrapped with pipe insulation that covers the blade and projects about 3 inches past the end and is then filled with more foam to give it a soft stabby tip that is safe to use full contact.

I was going to post a picture of one but i cant find the USB cable for my camera to get the picture onto the computer So i will try later.

The pommel is also well padded for pommel strikes. The Welches made a lot of them for Jakes seminar in knoxville and I still use mine and like it quite a bit as you can spar full force without fear of injuring your partner. (Well except for banging forearms)

[JeffGentry]

Hey Ryan heck yea it hurt's it just doesn't injure you, it actualy doesn't hurt that much enough you realy want to defend yourself though.

Jeff

Yes i'm a wimp, lol.

[ColinWheeler]

Actually, a tightly rolled up magazine can hurt quite a bit if you use it properly (i.e. with genine injurious intent). It makes a very useful improvisational weapon when held in a foreshortened grip, with 1-2" projecting forward and the rest protecting your forearm. Use it the same way you would throw a ridgehand, either straight and tight or looping, targeting the throat, temple, ribs or abdomen.

I can say from a few real-life circumstances that a rolled-up magazine used in this fashion can be quite disuasive to an attacker who is not fully commited to lethal harm.

Colin Wheeler
Athens, Ga

[Shane Smith]

My Asian MA Master likewise taught me to use a magazine as a vicious weapon.They DO hurt...ALOT <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

Well, I now have 3 stitches over my eye courtesy of a "training rondel" (the rolled up magazine in duct tape). <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I guess that says something about its utility.

<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />