Sharing a new test cutting video

[JeanryChandler]

I'm sure they are very accurate, Mr. Johnnson takes his craft seriously. But I did suspect that they might be a bit heavier than the originals, as most reproductions to date have proven to be. You will see this is if you look at auction websites where original antique swords are sold. I believe John C. has made similar observations from his trips overseas. You can also see the trend that reproductions of European medieval and renaissance swords have gotten much lighter over the last 5 or 10 years.

The point is, I would assme that the replicas are quite authentic, but they seem do tend to get better over time and it's a bit of a stretch to assume that they are perfect. It would be nice for us to know how close they have gotten. If data about the original weapons is witheld for commercial reasons people on the academic side of the fence are left in the dark.

Think of where WMA would be if Ewart Oakeshott had made a deal with Hanwei or Del Tin or something and kept all his data as a trade secret?

Jeanry

By the way, this is the thread i was referring to, i forgot to link it in my last post:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=15195&s=

[Casper Bradak]

If they're accurate, it's no longer a secret as soon as he sells one. Maybe he's nervous about comparison with the originals specifications?
I'm sure as repros go it's very nice, but he certainly doesn't inspire confidence with that attitude, especially for the $$$$$$.

[GaryGrzybek]

Guys, guys...

Is what Peter's doing different than any other craftspeople out there? Or, is it different than our organization keeping a private members page? Should we offer all of our hard work for others to exploit?

The guy's trying to make a living and in turn provide the sword community with something we all want, good accurate recreations. I've never once seen a post by Peter Johnsson that came off as arrogant or with an attitude.

So what's the problem?

[JeanryChandler]

I dont think Peter Johnson is arrogant, from the little I know of him I like and respect Peter Johnson. I certainly dont have anything against him, and I dont think that he has any obligation to tell anybody how he makes swords...

But to me, the dimensions and weight of a famous 15th century masterpiece weapon on public display should be public knowledge.

How he makes a nearly identical replica sword is of course his own business!

Maybe I'm crazy, but I see a pretty obvious dividing line between what should be in the public domain and what should be trade secrets. Sure parts of the ARMA board are members only, but a lot of stuff on here is public which is of great help to non members like myself, and I think ARMAs contributions to the WMA and spathology / hoplology communities has enhanced their prestige. Certainly in my eyes.

For example, the fechtbuchs themselves should be public , though not their interpretaton whch are trade secrets.

The issue isn't so much about this one guy though, and I dont mean to pick on Mr. Johnson, to me it's about general practices in WMA related industries. I think we have to share to what extent we can. I believe we all benefit as a result.

For example, i believe all sword replica makers have benefited from the work of mr oakeshott.

DB

[Joachim Nilsson]

Peter is a highly respected friend and colleague of mine, whose knowledge and insights into swords and the making of them I have nothing but the deepest respect and admiration for. And with that in mind I have to say that I feel offended on his behalf.

Jeanry, the issue you brought up is an old one I and really don't think this forum is the right place for it. Have you contacted him personally about the issue at hand?

I don't want to start anything and fan any flames here. Nor do I want to hijack this thread any more than it already has been. But I cannot help feel a little bit worried as these posts seem to have come in to existance just to start something. My reason for this is that the quote you used above is pulled out of context. It also lacks a, for this given subject, quite important intital sentence. I'll include it in bold letters:

This full set of data is put to use at Albion. I have not published or shared the full material with any one else at this point. This is because this material is what pts bread on my table and is gatherd by costly and time consuming work.

I can admit that while not fully briefed on how Albion operates with their business associates, I'm still quite certain that divulging information that pertains to products under developedment would be a serious breach of trust and professionalism (not to mention possible contracts) between Peter and the Albion staff. And I'm quite certain we all know what a violation of existing businesscontracts would result in: No NextGens, no Maestro Line, no nothing. And none of us would want that.

Take a good look at the dates in the discussion you linked to: the ones that deal directy with this issue, are all from 2003. Which is quite some time before the Brescia was released... With that in mind I don't feel one bit aggravated, upset, disappointed or even surprised that Peter didn't want to share any crucial information.

IMHO, bringing up issues (whose origins are somewhat debatable) that are more than a year old is really unneccesary and uncalled for. They should remain where they belong: in the past, well behind us.

Although I extend my sincerest apologies to Lance Chan for further hijacking his thread, I still feel that with all the respect I have for Peter -professional as well as personal- I just had to speak up for him. If you wish to discuss this further, with me or Peter, I think private conversation and personal correspondance is the best place for such matters.

[Lance Chan]

I echo Joachim's thought. In fact, as a sparring sword maker myself, when I thought of the past communication done with Peter Johnsson before he linked up with Albion, he was so open in telling me the hard-earned knowledge he earned from traveling around the museums and making the swords.

And I didn't pay him a penny in the consulting fee! Where did he get his money then?

So when he said he had been disclosing too much, I agree so.

For example, since I'm in contact with Fred Chen's industry's sales, the sales keep telling me they can make the same Brescia Spadona better at retail price of 360 USD, by increasingi the number they make.

I just laughed off and asked them where do they get the data then? Go to the musem and measure themselves? It takes a lot of money. So why would Peter just shared it with everyone of us? It's understandable.. but he did share with me before (Jeanry, maybe you're a bit too late in knowing Peter in person, ).

The sales of Fred asked me to give him the measurement. I can assure all of you with my life that, he won't get any from me. Why would I want my hard-earned sword to be cheapened that way?

[JeanryChandler]

Lance, have you weighed your own replica? You said in myarmoury after some exercise, it no longer feels heavy to you, is that right? The test-cutting on those pig feet was amazing.

Jeanry

EDIT - nevermind, sounds like that is also privelaged information!

[Lance Chan]

My sword is 1.5kg / 3lbs 4oz.

About the weight issue, if you know about Japanese antiques, the older swords (800 years ago or more) were lighter than the later swords, not only because of the wear and tear, but because of the steel used. The steel used in the old Japan was less densed than the one we have now. So it's very normal that a same dimension sword would be heavier nowadays than in the past. It's at least an accepted fact in the Japanese antique circle.

[Lance Chan]

Jeanry, I told you the weight right away after seeing your question and you edited ur post to sound sacrastic on me?

"EDIT - nevermind, sounds like that is also privelaged information! "

Now that's no good.

I don't feel the sword is heavy to me anymore after 5 solo drill sessons. Heavy or light is subjective, always. Since I've been using the tinker sword that's too short in the grip and too light for many of my ARMA customers here (my original RSW bastard sword, the short one), I can understand why I would feel the Brescia as heavy. Any variation from the sword I used to will result in a "heavy/light" anyway. It doesn't necessary mean the sword Brescia itself is heavy in historical term though. It's just me, the Rheumatoid Arthritis tortured slim Asian swordsman who got used to a "more-single-handed-cut-and-thrust-like" bastard sword found it heavy for the first few times.

Now I feel the contrary, because of the shorter hilt of the tinker sword, I couldn't use the same leverage movement I use with the Brescia, so despite it's 1 lbs lighter than the Brescia, added that the POB is 4.525 inches down the guard, farther from the one on Brescia, it feels HEAVY.

Does it explain? <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[JeanryChandler]

I echo Joachim's thought. In fact, as a sparring sword maker myself, when I thought of the past communication done with Peter Johnsson before he linked up with Albion, he was so open in telling me the hard-earned knowledge he earned from traveling around the museums and making the swords.

Well, everybody seems to think Peter Johnson is a really nice guy, so i have no reason to think otherwise. I'm sorry to hear that you agree with Joachim however, because I certainly did not make any insinuations against Mr Johnson.

Whatever my other faults are, I have always been a straight shooter, and for example while you and I are theoretically competetors in making sparring weapons, I have actually always shared my techniques with you and even publically recommended your weapons to others for example.

I just laughed off and asked them where do they get the data then? Go to the musem and measure themselves? It takes a lot of money. So why would Peter just shared it with everyone of us? It's understandable.. but he did share with me before (Jeanry, maybe you're a bit too late in knowing Peter in person, ).

Again, I dont think basic measurements constitute trade secrets, nobody is asking him to even post things like the degree of distal taper or the blade edge geometry or anything like that. As for going to the museum in italy, why couldn't somebody do that? Is it a private museum now? With all due respect to Albion, for the price of that sword i could buy round trip tickets to Italy right now today. Maybe they wouldnt let a slob like me in the back room to handle the weapon, but there are plenty of other people in the world besides Peter Johnnson who would qualify to do so, including probably half of the senior membership of ARMA.

I have no interest in helping somebody make a cheap knock off of this fine replica, I just dont think the data needed by the WMA community to understand spathology and that needed to actually make a replica are the same thing.

As for Peter Johnnson, I dont know why he would be mad at me frankly, I'm not mad at him. Unlike ceretain other people, he hasn't accused me of anything, nor I him. I just questioned what he actually said. Most of the subsequent argument has been whether that policy is a good policy or not, rather than whether it's his specific policy.

And while not famous, I'm a good friend to have.

Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

Jeanry, I told you the weight right away after seeing your question and you edited ur post to sound sacrastic on me?

"EDIT - nevermind, sounds like that is also privelaged information! "

Now that's no good.

No lance I fired that off and was too busy after composing a response which you will note above, i missed your post. I'm sorry.

I'll take ten minutes or so to respond to any further posts. I have no beef with you.

Jeanry

[Lance Chan]

Hehhe that's ok. Just want to remind you that posting like that do tend to start flame war if I didn't take you as my friend. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cheer up. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Lance Chan]

BTW, maybe you can try to contact Peter privately through email. He tends to be more open in the email exchange.

[John_Clements]

This is off topic, but I think necessary: Jeanry, as you are not an ARMA member, and so do not really know us or train with us, I'm not sure why you really felt able to comment on our senior membership's qualifications regarding knowledge (or lack thereof) about historical swords. But that aside, Peter Johnson, whom I do know personally (and hold tremendous respect and admiration for), has in my opinion more qualifications than any living person I am aware of to produce accurate reproductions of historical blades from his own extensive studies and measurements of countless originals. Try to keep that mind.

On that note, since this is off topic and not related to the thread, this aspect of the topic is now closed.
Thanks.

JC

[Lance Chan]

Further test cutting done on 4mm thick leather wrapped pork arm.


The full report of the test cut and the miscellaneous damages can be found here:
http://www.rsw.com.hk/brescia-review.htm#damage