breaking the phlug

[Jake_Norwood]

I have a real problem with it relying on the opponent reacting a certain way, or any assumptions of a certain psychology. None of the other cuts work that way. The only one, in fact, that I know of, is Meyer's knechelhau...which isn't a "standard" cut at all, by any stretch of the imagination.

The meisterhau work because of geometry. Addmittedly this is my assumption, but I think it's pretty grounded. See my post in the other schiller thread.

Jake

[Bill Welch]

"The meisterhau work because of geometry. Addmittedly this is my assumption, but I think it's pretty grounded."

I agree completely I think it works because of better geometry, and timing.

"When you stand against him and hold your sword on your right shoulder, if he then stands against you in the guard of the plough and would stab you from below, then strike him with the glancer to point high and long to his chest, thus he will not reach you with the stab from below."

I think the second part that states "and would stab you from below, then strike him with the glancer to point high and long to his chest, thus he will not reach you with the stab from below." means to strike into longpoint, (liech. says strike high and long into his chest) before he has stabbed you from below otherwise you would stike to his longpoint, with the glancer.

[david welch]

I agree completely I think it works because of better geometry, and timing.

We were talking about the other reason this works at our last training session. If we are both in long point, and I roll over like I would be in a glancer, I will gain over 5" and thrust you. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

All things being equal, if you are thrusting from plow, and somebody is thrusting from a glancer, the glancer wins.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

Meyer doesn't say that Schiller breaks pflug. What's more is that the schiller he shows doesn't appear to be capable of it. Thus the ongoing theory that there are "two" schillers. Then again...

I didn't say Meyer said it break's plough, I was reminding you what Meyer say's you can use as an attck from plough i.e. when your opponenet is in plough and you use schiller, guess you didn't get it.

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Hello jack.

I think you really ask the right questions. (I think you gave the answer in the other thread on the shiel)
I do not think is not because of uberlauffen, though what bill says is correct and what he says works, I think his example is a good demonstration for uberlaufen and not for the shiel.

You are beating long point because, your body structure is stronger than his and just by doing the blow you push his thrust of line and you hide behind your sword.

If you cross mid-sword because your grip is a short edge one the wrist/froearme position is much stringer that when you thrust.
If you look at the wrist hand system in trems of equilibrium. The short edge with extended arms is stabe equilibrium the forces applied to it tend to make it more balance (before you eventually unbalance the system is a sufficient amount of force is exerced
The normal way of thrusting is comparatively a much less stable equilibrium.

Phlip phlop

ps about the thrust strike thing. Ringeck tells us to strike when he strike and thrust when he thrust <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Bill Welch]

Phillip wrote:"I think you really ask the right questions. (I think you gave the answer in the other thread on the shiel)
I do not think is not because of uberlauffen, though what bill says is correct and what he says works, I think his example is a good demonstration for uberlaufen and not for the shiel."

I think that is the reason it works, because you overreach your opp.

From Goliath:
"Mark when you come to him in the pre-fencing to stand with the left foot forward and hold your sword on your right shoulder, if he strikes then to your head from above then twist your sword and strike long against his strike with your arms above and the short edge right over his sword to his head."

I dont see how it is not overreaching.

"Another

When you stand against him and hold your sword on your right shoulder, if he then stands against you in the guard of the plough and would stab you from below, then strike him with the glancer to point high and long to his chest, thus he will not reach you with the stab from below. "

That to me is also overreaching, as far as I can tell.

"then strike him with the glancer to point high and long to his chest"

I dont think, against an opp standing in Plough, that from Goliath, the intention is to strike to Ox, but to strike to his right shoulder, chest, or head. Its not so much setting aside his point, as much as its cutting into him, and overreaching his point.

Jake wrote in the other thread,"I think that the hand must be high. I think that it is by lowering the point that the schiller breaks pflug, forcing a bind which is resistant to the durchwechseln, and which threatens the chest."

I think, you should not have to lower the point if you are cutting to the right side of his head, or right shoulder, because if you dont connect you are already in a threatening position.

I also agree that the hands must be kept high, because of geometry to outreach, and to protect your head.

And I also agree that you should not have to change the basic shiller, because of your adversaries position, BECAUSE you outreach him.

But thats just what I think, so now I must go and experiment, and see.

[Mike Cartier]

i am just Meyer guy but i use the low hilt pflug as the solution to a problem with Meyer's schielhau. His schielhau works well against a an oberhau more in the schietelhau trajectory or a rather vertical zornhau, however when the opponent use a very angular (extreme diagnonal) zornhau it can bounce in quite an unsatisfactory manner and often bounce in to my arms. So I use the low hilted Schielhau in INDES as i perfom the schielhau and see it coming as a sharp zornhau more to the side. When you drop your hilt in mid schielhau it deflects nicely and begs a thrust follow up.

It seems Meyer schielhau is a longer range type of attack than the low hilted one whiich i think speaks somewhat to the utility of both.

I have always found Schielhau from Meyer works best in the withdrawl as you void, which is in sort of opposition to the description of Meyer which is a straight in attack.

This is after all what Meyer himself expects us to do as he says so several times for us to see the elements in a given technique or device and go on to use them from other guards and situations.


The breaking of Pflug is another matter entirely, technically it makes sense but it can be quite difficult to achieve.

[JeffGentry]

Hey guy's

I dont think, against an opp standing in Plough, that from Goliath, the intention is to strike to Ox, but to strike to his right shoulder, chest, or head. Its not so much setting aside his point, as much as its cutting into him, and overreaching his point.

The reason this work's is because when you do it you quickly close with them and change the angle you attack from there is no over reaching it is a closing action.

When they thrust at you, you have stepped offline and brought your sword from right to left and now moved the weak of there sword out with the strong of your sword and are using the sword as a shield short edge down to strenghten it and give you a very strong finishing thrust by you charging in with the thrust putting your whole body behind it.

They cannot cut at you from plough they need go to vom tag it is impossible to cut from plough they have to raise there sword overhead first then come down two action's and if they try to cut at you, you should be inside there sword and too close for them to cut, giving you time to thrust and end it like i said up top by charging in and pushing your sword through them with your whole body behind it because you closed with them when you step to do the schil.

The only thing dependant on the opponent is his gaurd, and schiller is what break's plough, if you do it an as you close with them they are done, it is dependant on you closing with the strike not anything your opponent does, it is all on you.

Dobringer(Italics mine)
"Also know thay when you wish to fence in earnest, then you shall have finished piece in [your mind], any [technique or strategy] you want that is complete and correct and hold to it in all seriousness and firmly in your mind when you want to close with him as if to say "This is what I intend!"<<< notice the exclamation point indicating he is being emphatic.

Jeff