Rapier?

[Jon Pellett]

Wow this forum got busy!

Jeff H:

Here's the first version of the proclamation (4 Elizabeth I, Westminster, 6 May 1562):

"And whereas a usage is crept in, contrary to former orders, of wearing of long swords and rapiers, sharpened in such sort as may appear to the usage of them can not tend to defense, which ought to be the very meaning of weapons in times of peace, but to murder and evident death, when the same shall be occupied: her Majesty's pleasure is that no man shall, after ten days next following this proclamation, wear any sword, rapier, or any weapon in their stead passing the length of one yard and half a quarter of blade at the uttermost, neither any dagger above the length of twelve inches in blade, neither any buckler with a sharp point or with any point above two inches in length, upon pain of forfeiting the sword or dagger passing the said length, and the buckler made otherwise than is prescribed, to whomsoever will seize upon it, and the imprisonment of his body that shall be found to wear any of them, and to make fine at her Majesty's will and pleasure. And if any cutler or other artificer shall, after the day of the publication hereof, sell, or have within his shop or house to be sold, or shall make or cause to be made any rapier, sword, dagger, or buckler contrary to this order, to forfeit the same, his body to be imprisoned, and to make fine at the Queen's Highness's pleasure, and to remain in prison till the said fine be fully satisfied; and being taken with the fault the second time, never to be permitted after to use that occupation; which in the Court is to be executed by the officers aforesaid, in the city and within the liberties, by the mayor and Court of aldermen, and such as by them shall be appointed in that sort, as well sergeants as others beforesaid; in Westminster, the suburbs, and other privileged places, by the officers, of the same; in towns corporate by the mayor and other head officers, and in all other places by the justices of peace."

So max blade length is 40.5" (perhaps not coincidentally, Silver's max perfect length is 40"...) There's nothing to suggest that the restriction was due to fashion, as is often claimed, but rather to fighting. The reference to sharpness is interesting; were civilian swords at that time often left blunt, or unpointed?

Nice job on the Wittenwiller, BTW.

Cheers

[John_Clements]

I know of not a single replica rapier that is historicaly accurate in its stiffness, sadly. I can reccomend none of all those I own and have tried. Hope this situation changes in time.
So, I have been using wooden rapeirs for several years now to supplement all the steel noodles out there. These are mentioned in Di Grassi & Swetnam among other places.

Must run,

Ciao

JC

[GCFreeman]

Hi John,

My first post here!

I find it interesting that there isn't a replica rapier that you have found to have a stiffness you feel is acceptable.

I owned an Arms and Armor replica rapier for a while, and I found the blade to be plenty stiff without being brittle. I presently own a Darkwood rapier with a Del Tin blade that doesn't whip around any more than my A&A did.

I'm just curious as to why you feel that a rapier blade needs to be as still as a steel rod?

In my rapier practice, I'm not so worried about the flexibility of my blade as far as safety goes, but the flexibility of the blade takes the shock away from a beat.

Is your opinion that a rapier blade needs to be so stiff because of the reaction that modern blades get whippy when they are struck by another blade?

Are many antiques so stiff?

Thanks very much for the info.

--Geoff Freeman

[John_Clements]

Hi

Well, since I've handled dozens of antique rapiers from the 16th and 17th centuries, played with many of them, as well as tens of smallswords and numerous 19th century duelling epees, and then tried to use modern repicas with both sharp and foiled tips in practice on thrusting targets or bouting, the differences between the real ones and the modern replicas are astonishing, especially when used with solid and quick thrusts.

I have not purchased a sword from any maker in about 2 years, so if any have improved stiffness, I can't speak to that. However, all the makes and models I've tried, including several that others felt confidentaly were "stiff enough," turned out to be far too wobbily when used with correct technique. As well, a lot of weapons I've shown others who felt they were plenty stiff at first turned out not to be when they were then shown how to use the weapon (i.e., less like an epee or foil and more like the real method).

The blade of a modern rapier, as with the historical ones, should be akin to a lazer beam pointer in the sense of how accurate it moves and lets you control the point. It cannot have any wobble, whip, delay, nor any "sproing" when it contacts another weapon. (Nor can the weapon be too heavy...and several models I've examined or own are poorly balanced because their tangs were not thick enough and this affected their balance significantly).

But, keeep in mind I am describing and discussing here the "true rapier," with the later narrow and thicker blade of typically hexaognal or octagonal cross section, and not the earlier flatter and wider kind of blade.

JC