Through kendo eyes

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hello,

I noticed that one of the people on the forum said that the demonstration with JC and Gary G at the International Gathering is:

"Very staged I ran a re-enactment group for 10 years and to me they all looked like well rehearsed set pieces looks good until you look at the person who is cutting against the expert her always knows were he is going and what will happen."

Maybe they ought to challenge John to some freeplay and see if the moves still look "staged".

You have to firgive me, that does look staged <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Just look at it in slow motion. But hey, it's a presentation and not a free-play, what should it look like? Of course it's staged! And besides, at least 4 years old, for that was the first time I downloaded it. In 4 years one can become black belt in most McDojós, so no point in criticising John from this distance anyway <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

And freeplay? Gee, that would not be fair. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Like, first, they should learn to fight. No offense, truly not, but most martial artists have no clue what a free fight is. Okay, a fullcontact moi thai guy could clearly whip some asses of ours, for we are not used to be hit with that strenght right in the middle of the face, but still, we fight without much rules, and they are not acustomed to that <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

We have a 3 Dan Kendoka guy in our training, who can be easily defeated by my 10 year old sister from the sides (she's in our training), but hey, that guy strikes scheitel so ***n fast you can't see his sword. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />


Szabolcs

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gent's

If John was demoing a technique of course it was staged so people could see what was going on, anyone ever tried learning a technique at full speed, I am not sure what video it is some are technique demo's other's are sparring free/play.

I have watched most all the video's on the site at one time or another and have used some of the thing's John has on here as demo's in free play/padded sparring with success.


Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

I had the chance last night, while waiting for another event, to watch a kendo class and got to see a 3rd and 4th degree black belt in that art do free play. So I was watching skilled good kendo guys go at it. I was incredibly grateful for this art afterwards. There were 2 positions used, a kind of middle pflug and vom tag. That was it. The hits were more often than not "tag" hits. They had a very fast sheitelhau, but that was it. The footwork was entirely linear and guys 6" away from each other did no grappling or ringen am schwert. Despite the obvious impressive commitment, practice and speed of the fighters, I came away with the sense that the art was severely limited and that a much newer ARMAteer, despite a lesser training level, could hold their own against the guys I saw just by virtue of being able to do more than 3 moves.

[Tony_Indurante]

Jaron,

I'd say you are trying to compare apples to oranges here. One is sport, and the other is martial arts. The only time you have problems is when folks think that doing one is the same as doing the other.

I'd be willing to bet that if you were doing kendo, those guys would be tough to beat.

[Matt_Bruskotter]

I agree. Two different animals. I've been doing a little kendo lately. I've been trying many types of sport fencing to get a better understanding of the sword. I figured kendo would help me with my longsword. I try to remember that it's a sport, not a martial art. The more I practice kendo, the more I see what is retained from being an actual sword art and what is different due to it being a sport.

I respect kendo, andI know what it is and what it isn't. It's a sport. Kendo guys claiming they know how to use a sword is like saying a sport epee fencer that he knows how to use a rapier or a boxer saying he knows how to fight.

But to say it's impractical is like saying boxing is impractical because they don't wrestle or kick. It's true that boxing isn't all there is to fighting, but it's a hell of a good sport that will help anyone with thier punching skills and footwork. So in that sense, it is practical for what it offers. So, I think certain parts of kendo are practical, such as knowing my range or improving my reaction time, but clearly not all of it, like thier lack of wrestling at the sword. Technically, kendo players are good at fencing with shinai, not swords.

So anyways, I like swords, kendo is fun while my longsword I take to be serious. I'm trying kendo to help my longsword skill. I'm just trying to learn all I can about swords. And some of those kendo guys on the forum were rude but I think others on both sides were very polite.

I remember what Doebringer said, "For practice is better than art, but the art is not much good without the exercise."

Oh, and in no way am I defending what some of those on the kendo forum said. I'm all WMA. Any kendo player who claims that what they do is "real" swordfighting is delusional.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I am by no means denigrating the guys I saw. They were well conditioned, very fast and obviously had a high level of training. It was just like watching a carpenter in action who was really awesome with hammer, but who absolutely refused to use a saw, level, tape measure or screwdriver. I am just criticizing what to me looked like a very limited skill set.

In terms of how I would do, I don't know. If I was restricted to 2 guards, 1 strike and one set of footwork, I would do badly. I think that using the full WMA longsword arsenal, with them restricted to their thing, I think I would have a good chance. Not so much because of my skill level (I am only a low to average fighter trying to tame my inner buffalo), but just because I could do so much more.

[jeremy pace]

I agree Matt. I have said on here previously much the same thing. Learn from whatever you do. For years i had nothing to go with but SCA and sport fencing and while neither is as serious or as effective as true WMA i think i learned a lot. Distance, timing, footwork, and most importantly INITIATIVE!! Whether you are out doing escrama, kendo, or just swinging a stick learn what you can doing it.....

I think that with all the different things ive learned over the years about swd fighting the most important was to differentiate between whats based on reality compared to whats based off a rules system. Before ARMA i always thought halfswording was fantasy... "you would cut your hand off! I could stab that guy before he even got close!" et cetera. But once i tried it full speed against guys i considered experienced fighters they couldnt stop me. That proves its effectiveness to me and so ever since i pick up everything with that mindset. We can look at Kendo and say, " ew... no ringen?" and thats fine. We all know that if you added ringen to what they were doing it would work. Just because we have a trick they dont use doesnt mean we have to show them! <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Now, if for whatever reason you were fighting a skilled Kendo practitioner to the death then you would have some serious advantages. And who cares if the fight is finished with a pommel to the eye instead of a fancy slice to an artery. The fact is that its finished. The comparison here is like kids T- Ball to the Major leagues. Can you learn good basics from T-Ball? Well why degrade people if they want to take a step down in realism to explore the "fun/ esoteric" side of swordsmanship? Bottom line is if you think its good then bring it to the ring. If it works then maybe it is.... but i doubt they would leave happy. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Jeremy Martin]

Most at least seemed smugly superior in their posts(though I'm sure we seem the same way a lot of the time), though most were also fairly polite.

I think for most of the rest its just another case of "jApanEse sowrds r teh l33t!!1!1" syndrome. I'm sure with the proper medication and plenty of bed rest they'll be able to make a full recovery.

Although the 'they watch too many cartoons' statement was pretty funny. Considering all the BS about oriental fighting styles and weapons you're inundated with in cartoons(anime, etc) as well as live action films.

I'm trying to recall the last cartoon I saw that even featured western swords and techniques. Particularly any that had the knights cutting through solid steel and flying through the air. Oops, I failed.

[Cory Watkins]

Digging through the posts on this forum for information, i came across this and turned a little white.

I am a long time member of that forum, and a former kumdoka(I was injured and forced to stop, i am now moving towards WMAs for a couple of reasons, mainly in that it coincides with my major, and i beleive after some research WMAs will fit what i can do a little better.....They may not, but at the very least, as a history and anthro major with designs on grad school, the research experience will be nice.).

Please understand, half the people on that former are rude to each otherm, much less visitors. They are an incredibly tacky, incredibly critical bunch. They hate my guts(for varying reasons), and I wouldnt lift a finger to help half of them. Most are such firm beleivers in there own superiority, either because of age, or just an overinflated ego, there unbearable.

That thread does not suprise me in the least. Neil is a reasonable man, there are a few others who posted that have matured(i have spoken to commander several times, she is a very nice person), but the impressions of "smugness" are very much right. Threads attacking anything not "kendo" are regular occurences, they even attack those of us that do kumdo at times. I have stopped posting anywere but the offtopic forums, and even then dont post more than once a month or so.

The funny part is, ya'll stumped them. There so used to flaming people and either not having them speak up, or being the fools they make them out to be and posting nonsense, alot of them didnt seem to know what to do with the group posting.


At any rate, im glad to have found a forum were inteligent, historicaly minded, dscusion of the topic at hand is possible without every troll known to man interjecting there thoughts...

BTW, i apologise for typos, I tend to try to type things while doing something else(namely studying for a nautical archaeology class at the moment), and i miss alot of them.

[Logan Weed]

From what I have seen the majority of Iaidoka do not spar at all yet are still utterly convinced of their martial superiority. It's my extremely biased and slightly reactionary opinion that all this "the sword is a sacred thing and it would be disrespectful to use it in combat" is simply an excuse used to avoid actually having to back up anything they say.

And that's just the thing, you can say anything on an online forum. They're not the ones posting videos up for critique, no, they remain safe in their chairs to criticize others because they're too cowardly to risk critique themselves.

And Schola has the integrity to take their rather insulting comments seriously and seek to improve himself. That is the primary difference between these two groups I think. He has not built his pedestal so high as to not survive a fall from it, in fact, he steps on and off as he pleases.

I apologize for the confruntational nature of my post but these types of people just really get me angry. For what it's worth I think we've demonstrated our maturity and professional attitude in this situation very well.

[John_Clements]

I noticed that one of the people on the forum said that the demonstration with JC and Gary G at the International Gathering is:

"Very staged I ran a re-enactment group for 10 years and to me they all looked like well rehearsed set pieces looks good until you look at the person who is cutting against the expert her always knows were he is going and what will happen."

Maybe they ought to challenge John to some freeplay and see if the moves still look "staged". <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, obviously these adolescents don't understand the whole idea of demonstrating defenses and counters to specific attacks, which would mean they are clueless about the nature of training in real fighting arts. Or maybe they imagine it should be just like their anime with lots of useless exaggerated hopping around and yelling. Whereas, in contrast, during exhibitions like this the attacker has no idea what counter I will employ (and in most instances I don't even decide myself until I perceive his strike). Either way, it's pretty far from the virtually choreographed crap you see in kenjutsu and aikido demos, let alone that whack-a-mole game of feather-weight bamboo toys.

As for sparring challenges against me, yeah, I should be so lucky. None of these bozos is likely to ever come calling. They haven't for many years now. But the door is open....

JC

[Jeffrey Hull]

From what I have seen the majority of Iaidoka do not spar at all yet are still utterly convinced of their martial superiority. It's my extremely biased and slightly reactionary opinion that all this "the sword is a sacred thing and it would be disrespectful to use it in combat" is simply an excuse used to avoid actually having to back up anything they say.

And that's just the thing, you can say anything on an online forum. They're not the ones posting videos up for critique, no, they remain safe in their chairs to criticize others because they're too cowardly to risk critique themselves.

And Schola has the integrity to take their rather insulting comments seriously and seek to improve himself. That is the primary difference between these two groups I think. He has not built his pedestal so high as to not survive a fall from it, in fact, he steps on and off as he pleases.

I apologize for the confruntational nature of my post but these types of people just really get me angry. For what it's worth I think we've demonstrated our maturity and professional attitude in this situation very well.

I think you have no reason to apologise.

What of Iaido? At most one of their super-dudes has perfected one excellent first-strike, versus of course phantoms and/or maybe still inanimate cutting targets, and three forms that constitues dance-choreography. Musashi Miyamoto would destroy such "fencers".

And I tip my hat to Schola, who certainly do more than than those critics, I do reckon.

One last thought: I actually can understand calling the sword sacred. However, those who insist upon such at least should have enough respect for it to really know how to wield the thing instead of play-acting with it like pompous juveniles. Hence to use such as excuse for one's own lack, as some do, is truly hypocritical.

[david welch]

LOL!

Iaido... the art of slaughtering peasants with no warning. Yeah, lots of ancient sword warrior honour there...

[Jaron Bernstein]

There is something to be said for drawing fast and getting the first cut in. With swords that first cut may be all it takes. Of course, if that doesn't work.....hopefully you know how to use the blade afterwards.......

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Now you are getting ugly.

You do not do any better than those guys flaming forums.
You should consider carefully. Knights were slaugheting peasants as well. And how can U talk about a different martial art like this? Do you know it? Well I do. I was involved in Iaidó for 4 years 5 years ago. And I know that the Iaidó has a different purpose, than WMA. If you talk to a true iaidó-ka, and tell him that he cannot fight, the answer is usually: well I do not want to. And that's it.
There are people who flame and attack other martial arts - that has nothing to do with Iaidó or Kendo or whatever. Please try to see the person behind! Of course, if a martial artist of a harmonic martial art like Iaidó, with no contact sparring insists that he/she can fight, it's a laugh. Still no need talking about them like this! Trash them! Trash them to hell! Bot not on forums!

sorreeeee.

Szab