ARMA, historians, hollywood, and video games

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

explain to them why they ought to look into HEMA in order to get greater historical authenticity

I would parse it another way. I would say something like, "This would allow the option of having more historically accurate moves, or having movements that allow for more verisimilitude for a game, even if realism is not a primary goal, or failing that, sorts of movements that look dramatically different than those seen in fighting games, television, eastern martial arts, the stage, documentaries, or cinema, allowing for greater niche differentiation of their animation. Historically accurate renaissance martial arts is something where the moves look different (in a good way) than anything most people have seen before**.

(**Source, John Clement's blog: "My sampleclips were used by Antonis Kotzias, the lead CGI animator, to create some fight sequences in the program. This was the first time an expert practitioner of fight-book material was used to produce animations of historically accurate 15th century combat techniques for film or broadcast. He later emailed me that the fight motion sequences I provided were a style he had never seen in any movie, documentary, or video game.")

[James Brazas]

Jonathan Kaplan,

My wording wasn't really meant as the sales pitch itself, more just to get the general idea across to y'all. Your wording is much better from a marketing perspective.

I also also agree that the folks who made Skyrim and those who made the Witcher would likely be interested in ARMA's historical accuracy, realism, etc.

As before mentioned, Nintendo could be added to the list. Their executives have already explicitly stated that it is their goal to increase the realism of their swordplay in Legend of Zelda games. So it stands to reason that they would be interested in incorporating ARMA sword and shield or sword and target ideas into Link's fighting.

[James Brazas]

Regarding Hollywood, does anyone have any ideas for studios that might be receptive to ARMA's ideas?

I already suggested WETA Workshop - the folks that did weapons, armor, and combat for The Lord of the Rings and Narnia. Has anyone from ARMA ever gotten into contact with WETA regarding historical fencing?

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

I'd say all the big name WRPG developers... a few have been mentioned, but I should try and get the rest listed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethesda_Softworks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioware

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplay_Entertainment

Have I missed any?

[James Brazas]

The only one I can think of that has yet to be mentioned is Square Soft. I'm not sure how receptive Square would be as they tend to emphasize fantasy weapons (especially oversized swords) and lots of magic, but I think it would still be worth a shot to contact them as well.

Honestly, I think ARMA ideally ought to contact everyone in the industry who might theoretically have any interest in medieval/renaissance combat. They may or may not be receptive, but we can't really predict that. So the wise move would be something of a shotgun approach.

Even if we only get one or two studios to incorporate ARMA techniques into their games/movies in a major way, that's a huge step forward.

[James Brazas]

I'm not a personal fan of the series, but there is also Namco-Bandai's "Soul Caliber" series. That one is definitely the most prominent blade-based fighting game out there. Perhaps they might be interested in input from ARMA regarding characters who use Western fighting methods.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Well it seemed to me that the WRPG designers would be more interested in this than the JPRG designers... more likely to have Western fantasy inspired settings compared to eastern fantasy inspired settings (W is 'Western' in this case, j is 'Japanese' in this case)...

Are there any characters in Soul Caliber that are not over-the-top? I mean, Sigfried is the closest, but he's definitely over-the-top just like everything else; that's why I didn't mention any of the developers of Games Workshop type games and I was so confused about Blizzard; it doesn't fit the aesthetic.

[James Brazas]

Ah, thank you for explaining your acronyms. I really didn't know what you meant by WRPG or JRPG.

I understand what you are saying, though I would say that the setting of the game is far more important than the nationality of those who create it.

After all, there are plenty of Japanese-made games that center around a cast of white characters, are set in an obviously medieval European setting, and feature medieval European weapons. If that's the setting of the game and all the heroes are using longswords, spears, swords-and-shields, etc., I see no reason why the game developers would be unwilling to consider incorporating ARMA's historically accurate swordplay.

The Japanese-made medieval Europe inspired games do tend to vary a lot in their historicity, though. On the one extreme you have games like Final Fantasy which are no more realistic than Blizzard's titles. Then you get games like the Soul Caliber series which feature characters using semi-historical weapons (Cassandra's sword-and-buckler, Raphael's sidesword, or Siegfried's vaguely longsword-like giant crystal sword). Then you get games like the recent Legend of Zelda game where there is a conscious attempt to make combat at least somewhat realistic.

You also have to consider globalism. Just because a developer is headquartered in Japan or the US doesn't mean that they are 100% Japanese or American. Nintendo, for example, has most of their assets here in the States. They've also recently hired a whole lot of people that developed the "Uncharted" series and the "Darksiders" series. So that means more outside ideas from Westerners and probably more realism.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Just FYI, the WRPG and JRPG thing isn't a statement on where it was made, it was a statement of what sub-genre the game fits in. There are developers that are western and have made eastern style RPG's and vice versa, though that is uncommon. For example, Monolith, which made the eastern/japanese style computer RPG "Septerra Core", is in Washington.

Here's a somewhat on topic question:

What can we learn or do that can help with the verisimilitude (not realism) of moves with obviously fantastic weapons and armor? What is there that realistic martial arts techniques has to offer for motion capture for those sorts of things, intended for some sort of screen, be it for cinema, a computer or console game, or for things made for television?

[James Corcoran]

Having given it some thought, I don't think there is much that can be done with Hollywood or video game developers at this point. They have a very different set of goals and a lot of what we do doesn't translate well to the stage or screen. We as martial artists may appreciate attempts at greater accuracy, but the bulk of the public really doesn't care all that much so long as what they see is entertaining. Most people play video games to indulge in escapist fantasy, not get a history lesson. The huge swords and unrealistic moves are part of that. Also, Stage fighting is an art of it's own. It functions as an extension of the drama and is timed and acted in a way to build suspense and provide the audience with something flashy that is big and slow enough for the average viewer to understand while sitting in the theater or at home on the couch.

[James Brazas]

Jonathan Kaplan:

Ah, that makes sense. I agree with you completely, then.

Regarding what good verisimilitude can give games/movies with fantastic elements, I will admit that the more realistic the game/movie, the more value verisimilitude will have.

Still, even if your hero has superhuman strength, speed, or magical powers, the laws of physics still apply. No matter how "super" of "magical" the characters are, a hanging guard is mechanically superior to a static, rigid, force-on-force block. Binding and Winding can still be used to get your sword behind your enemy's guard. Provided gravity still applies, ringen is still effective. The meisterhau still work whether you are dealing with historical knights or RPG paladins. Principles of distance, timing, leverage, and the basics of strikes and counter-strikes remain the same.

The Last Airbender (TV show) is a quality example of integrating traditional Chinese martial arts into a clearly supernatural setting. So it can be done and done well. The popularity of the show indicates that such integrations of actual martial arts with magic can be quite popular.

Can realistic combat alone sell? The Modern Warfare series is a good example of a game that sells solely because it is realistic. It is not perfectly "realistic" since you have more health and healing than in reality. You also get respawns and so forth. Pure realism would be both nearly impossible due to all the variables. Even if you could get perfect realism, it would likely not be fun. Who would play a game where one stroke of a sword could kill you and erase your game file? Yet the success of games like Modern Warfare indicate that a high degree of verisimilitude sells. The Mount&Blade series, made by a very small developer, sold simply by selling itself as the most realistic medieval combat game on the market (the mounted combat physics were good, though the fencing itself was horribly inaccurate). There are movies like Arn: the Knight Templar that exist solely to be historical fiction with a high degree of historical accuracy.

So if a game features knightly or other medieval/renaissance combat, they could make great use of ARMA's techniques to make their fighting more believable, more distinct, and closer to what real knights used. After all, why should games and movies incorporate ninjutsu and kenjutsu, but simply make up stuff for their Western characters? Think of the marketing potential of a fighting game or RPG that can confidently and accurately say that all of the swordplay is based on real techniques!

I have also noted that virtually every time I show a video of HEMA/ARMA to a non-practitioner, they are always shocked to see how fast it is, how distinct it is from everything they see today, and how much better it is than what they had imagined. So I see no reason why the general public would find it more boring than characters simply jumping high in the air and swinging swords wildly.

Even fairly realistic combat still provides some escapism, after all. How many of us spend our lives in medieval battles? That's escapism in and of itself. It allows us to live out a life that is impossible to live nowadays and to use medieval martial arts in ways we cannot do even in ARMA matches. After all, we can't actually stab a sparring partner full force for fear of injuring him. We can't have battles of thousands against thousands. Even if we could, games allow us to do that without the fear of actual injury or death. So even without magic or superhuman abilities, medieval combat games are every bit as fun and escapist as the modern warfare and covert-ops games that fill store shelves today. Indeed, thanks to the "long ago and far away" appeal, they would provide even more escapist fun.

If you add in magic or superpowers, that only adds new things you can do. Maybe you could have magical spinning moves or shoot lightening from your sword, but your melee combat can and should still be martially sound. There is no reason for superhumans to fight sloppily.

So I think it would be of benefit to the entertainment industry to look into medieval martial arts. It would certainly be beneficial to us to get our name out there and to popularize historically accurate swordplay.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

There seems to be a major disagreement here on whether or not this concept is a useful thing to pursue at all -- ie, James' view versus some of the others mentioned in this thread. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to at least approach some games developers in a way where there is very little cost to do so?

Maybe someone could send a snail mail or email letter to a few developers? Maybe we could see if there is a local arma presence in or near the hometowns where some of the target developers have their studios??

[Allen Johnson]

On the film front...
I've spent a good deal of time and effort working on this aspect of the craft. As of this last summer I am a certified member of the Society of American Fight Directors (SAFD), and have done a few small fight choreography jobs for little films and local theatre.

Like with most areas of misunderstanding, a person coming in with new ideas will be fighting against decades (or more) of tradition. For instance, the SAFD still refers to longswords and arming swords as "broadswords", they make wide, sweeping cuts with their circa 1600 rapiers and endlessly edge parry. This is the way new students are taught by people that have been in the business for years and years. To propose that these "idols" in the fight community have been doing it "wrong" is meet with hostility by some. Others know it's not accurate, but just don't care as long as it's entertaining. Many more are aware of the techniques, and will mix and match some legitimate stuff in with classic Hollywood fluff. So to say it is an uphill battle is quite the understatement.

The demands of fight choreographers are usually story and safety first, entertainment value second, and if you could be a little accurate as well, it's a tiny bonus. Of course, it all depends on the needs of the individual project. In my opinion, I don't ever foresee a time where fight choreographers and directors will, "get it right". What I see as a plausible outcome, could be a few companies or organizations that have teams of fighters that are trained to fight accurately, but are still educated in the demands of physical story telling through staged violence. This type of team mentality is more common in Asian cinema, where fighting is viewed more positively in cinema than in the US. The Hong Kong Awards and the Golden Horse Awards both have categories for Outstanding Fight Choreography...neither the Oscars or any of the other US Awards groups offer a similar one. (OK MTV Movie Awards does, but that's about as worthless as a Grammy...well maybe not quite that worthless.) The point is that cinema fighting is just not taken as seriously in America. That's why films wait to the last minute to train their actors and the results is a fight scene full of "shaky cam" to cover up the fact the no one knows what they are doing.

So what to do? Learn stage combat and then apply the historical principals to what you learned to develop scenes every bit as exciting and entertaining and safe and dramatic as the ones that use inaccurate techniques. In short, learn the trade and do it yourself. I've been working on this idea for several years now and am making tiny bits of headway, but both sides of the divide still have a lot to learn from each other.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

The thing is, I would say that video game development in particular does not have the same amount of 'baggage', no decades of tradition to draw on. Sure, they have cinematic stuff from movies, but I think that, for motion capture for video games in particular, they would be much, much, much more willing to depart from the way things are done than --say-- film or stage combat. All it takes with video games is one or two of the animators to go to their team lead and say, 'hey, I think I have a source to come up with some good videos for the animation to follow, can we bring some of these guys over for a few days with a video camera?' and the team lead to say 'okay'.

In other words, for video games? The developers have a far, far, far smaller risk to take by simply getting some historic combat experts to come in, compared to any situation where people have to work with real actors.

[James Brazas]

Allen Johnson,

Good on you for your work in that arena!

I can certainly understand that Hollywood fencers would be adverse to the idea of being told they're flat-out wrong about swordfighting. After all, they're "experts."

My ideal is the same as yours: accurate swordplay in hollywood made safe and interesting enough for the actors and the general public. After all, I'll admit that a 30 second sword-fight is an awful climax to a movie. Movies need the big drama.

I'd like to see a lot more accurately-trained fight choreographers like yourself out there!

How would you suggest ARMA members help in the effort to get movies to be more accurate?

Jonathan Kaplan:

What you are saying makes sense. It probably wouldn't be as hard to get video game developers to listen. I would wholeheartedly support the idea of experienced ARMA members contacting video game developers in the hopes of getting such meetings started.