Effectiveness of Mail armor

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JeanryChandler
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:45 pm

Maybe it's just me, but I'm still not convinced. I guarantee all that 2000 year old mail wasn't stored in an armoury, and from what I've seen corrosion keeps even 700 year old excavated mail from being identifiable in the manner the links were joined.


I think they can verify this with x-rays though. I could be wrong.

I agree with you about the 19th century stuff, I've seen it too (aventail on a 19th century turkish helmet a friend of mine has) and I definately think it's just for show.

I am not a supporter of butted mail, by the way, it kind of disgusts me! I just want to find out what the truth about all this is, I'm trying to figure it out for an article I'm working on.

If anyone knows of some other links or further research I could investigate I would very much like to see it. I don't care if it proves that link wrong about butted mail or backs it up or says something totally different, as long as it's good research.

JR
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:55 pm


Jeanry, There really have been no modern tests done that can accurately portray what mail armour was capable of. There have been a few demostrations performed by both ARMA and others, but unfortunately they fall short due to the test piece not being highly accurate.


Thanks for the fascinating post. I'm tantalized to death to know what revelations you may be thinknig of regarding celtic - roman mail.

A couple of points: I realise modern tests cant' tell us everything, but as the mail making gets more and more realistic (which I htink it does) and people continue to do tests, (A lot of the viking re-enactment groups in Europe seem to have done a great deal of very interesting testing on riveted mail armor) I think you can get closer to a better approxomated value for how well it worked. My goal in this article is to just move role playing games a bit closer toward a decent foundation in historical realism, based on the modern "laymans state of the art" of current research on medieval warfare and kit, as I thnk most of the data they use now was from the "laymans state of the art" of the 1970s.

Also, as far as all mail being riveted, I'll accept what you say as you seem very well versed on this, but it does seem likely to me that in the days before manufacturing and standardized production, some people may have been making mail wrong. I know there were some armoring centers even of the Celtic Empire, but anyone with access to some iron and the right tools could make steel wire and hence mail, and they might have done so with a varying degree of skill and even knowlege of how to do it properly in various different regions.

Though I have a great deal of respect for my ancestors in Europe and their various innovations and certainly their skill in combat, there is also a long tradition particularly in the medieval period of doing a lot of things wrong!

JR
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Erik D. Schmid
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby Erik D. Schmid » Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:27 am

Shane, there is a wonderful horse and rider armour in the Hofjagd und Rustkammer, Vienna that is composed entirely of butted links and was made for ceremonial use. It is very ornate. Also, there is a quite a bit of Middle Eastern/Indian armour made with the same purpose in mind. Too much to cite on this forum in fact.

Matt, my website is in my sig. While it is hard to replicate the armour it is not impossible. It just takes time and patience. A crash dummy would serve the purpose of a human adequately I would think.

Jeanry, the Celtic/Roman information will be forthcoming hopefully not long after I get back from my trip. I agree that mail making has come along way, but unless people actually construct it the way I have been doing, it will always fall short of the mark. This is not meant to sound arrogant, but really the only way to get it to look and act like a period piece is to make it in much the same way that they did. This is why I have to charge so much for the items I create. If everyone else was doing it this way, the cost would rise accordingly. No commercially made mail will stand up to an historical accuracy test unfortunately. At least none that I know op anyway.

What you have to understand is that the wire used by these long gone craftsmen is a far cry from what we have today. butted mail made with that type of wire could be quite easily pulled apart with your hands. The medieval period may have had its share of bad manufacturing techniques, but mail was not one of them as far as I can see.

Cheers,
E
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby Casper Bradak » Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:49 am

"Caspar, I hope you are not referring to the mail I make."

Only if you produce fakes (as opposed to legit replicas)
So I hope not <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby George Turner » Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:09 pm

Hi Erik,

What you have to understand is that the wire used by these long gone craftsmen is a far cry from what we have today. butted mail made with that type of wire could be quite easily pulled apart with your hands.


All too true. I make some round-wire welded maille, 19 to 16 gage, and the only use I have for butted maille is to start a new welded piece by continuing off an older one, with a single row of butted links as the transition. Once the new piece is well underway, I just yank them apart.

And for thrusts, I once put my body weight (140 lbs) on the tip of a Lee Enfield bayonet and it still didn't poke through 19 gage 3/16" ID weave (for a mitten), whereas butted 19 gage would easily fall apart in your fingers.

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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:24 pm

What you have to understand is that the wire used by these long gone craftsmen is a far cry from what we have today. butted mail made with that type of wire could be quite easily pulled apart with your hands. The medieval period may have had its share of bad manufacturing techniques, but mail was not one of them as far as I can see.


Thanks for the fascinating post. Are you saying that medieval mail was made of weaker wire than modern mail? That is an interesting contention. How about in the classical and dark age periods?

JR
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby Erik D. Schmid » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:36 am

Some mail was and some wasn't. A lot of it depends on the time period you are dealing with and what provenance the mail has. There are finds of Roman mail that have been identified as being almost pure iron. Some Middle Eastern examples are quite slaggy. There was a great deal of variation in the quality of the wire used depending on the place it was manufactured and who manufactured it. We have some very high quality mail from 16th century Germany that when tested, actually put dents into the jaws of the bolt cutters used to remove a couple of links for testing.

Modern wire has the advantage of having a uniform consistancey throughout whereas period examples didn't.

E
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby John_Clements » Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:41 pm

Well, Eric, the recent test cuts we did on a custom made section of small diameter flat ring riveted maile produced by a armor researcher certainly qualifies as being far from falling short in my opinion. The result was consistant with some of that by of our colleagues at the Royal Armory in Leeds. So, would you care to elaborate on your view of our test? I'm curious as to what you base it on, seeing as how you were not present at any of the testings and have not handled the piece in question.

JC
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby JeanryChandler » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:21 pm

We have some very high quality mail from 16th century Germany that when tested, actually put dents into the jaws of the bolt cutters used to remove a couple of links for testing.


Three comments:

1) Wow! <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

2) What was it made of, mythril? <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

3) Seems a shame to damage such a fine piece even for good academic reasons!
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby Erik D. Schmid » Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:08 pm

Well, Eric, the recent test cuts we did on a custom made section of small diameter flat ring riveted maile produced by a armor researcher certainly qualifies as being far from falling short in my opinion.

Well, John, how historically accurate was the test sample in question? The following is what I posted on the Armour Archive dealing with my thoughts on tests of this nature. It should illustrate my stance on this topic adequately.

I thought a great deal about this before I decided to post. The probability of me getting flamed for this is quite high, but I will speak my piece anyway.

This subject as already stated, has been discussed many, many times with nothing ever really being gained in terms of knowledge. You must all realize that unless your tests are done in a very scientific and exacting manner they will have absolutely no validity whatsoever.

For instance the mail will have to be made of wire having the same chemical composition as that of the mail you wish to study. This means making your own metal. This makes all mail produced today worthless for tests of this nature, mine included which fails because of the metal compostion. It could possibly be used for a Roman test, but that is about all. I have the ability to acquire metal having the proper composition, but the costs of making it into mail would be quite prohibitive. However, I was recently contacted and am currently in discussion with an unnamed university and national laboratory who have agreed to help the research society get the appropriate funding for tests of this type as well as other forms of link analysis.

The link diameter will also have to almost exactly match that used in the period you are interested with. This parameter is not that hard to achieve. The riveting on the other hand is a bit more tricky and requires more research to get it just right depending on what type of mail you are looking at testing. This includes the type, size and composition of rivet and also the manner in which it was manipulated in order to close the link.

What type of link are you looking at? Is it of round cross section, partially flattened, or fully flattened. If flattened, was the link lapped before or after flattening? Has there been any form of heat treatment done to the link? Where was the link maufactured? This will play a large part in determining what type of weapons said mail would have faced.

If you are going to be testing mail made in the fashion of that which was commonly used prior to the 13th-14th centuries then it should be made with alternating rows of whole links as well. Now you have to figure out what method was employed to create these links. Were they punched from a strip of iron, or were they welded? Both arguments have merit and claim to have the evidence to back them up. However, as far as the world is concerned, the jury is still out as much more research still needs to be done in that area.

Using small squares of mail will also not yield accurate results. The use of a full garment in whatever form is required and is essential to perform these tests adequately in order to get usable data.

With regards to what was worn in conjunction with mail there is still an immense amount of research needing to be done before we can say with any certainty what that was. Currently there are a couple of people who have done a fair amount of this type of research. One of them is using this research for a doctural thesis in the UK and from what I gather it is quite fascinating.

Another thing to consider is the fact that you will also have to have an expert in forensics on hand to determine what the effects this type of weapon would have on the human body. The idea of having a crash test mannequin is a good one.

As you can plainly see there are numerous factors involved in doing a test that would actually have scholarly value when completed. Of course the ones mentioned are only a small fraction of what would be needed.


The result was consistant with some of that by of our colleagues at the Royal Armory in Leeds.

That may very well be, but how accurate was their sample? I will be there in two weeks, so I will speak to them in detail about it then.

So, would you care to elaborate on your view of our test? I'm curious as to what you base it on, seeing as how you were not present at any of the testings and have not handled the piece in question.

My basis for asserting that your test was not the most accurate is summed up quite well above. Looking at the sample you had made for you I can readily see that it is not the most accurate in terms of construction. You have to understand John that I have been researching and manufacturing mail armour for at least six years on a full-time basis, so I hope I would know what to look for in terms of what makes a piece of reproduction mail accurate or not. Judging by the picture of this mail I can see that it was made with pretty much the same technique developed by Steve Sheldon of Forth Armoury. This manufacturing technique while producing a riveted link, does not yield an accurate looking riveted link. Since the link is not accurate looking, the results from any tests will not be accurate as they relate to the original pieces. Do you see what I am getting at?

I am not trying to belittle you or your tests in any way. I have been involved in these sorts of tests in the past and always have questioned the results because I knew they were not the most accurate. As mentioned above I am in negotiations with a National Laboratory who has contacted me and expressed interest in helping the research society with our cataloguing project by providing metallographic analysis of original samples of mail. It is hoped that this data will help us in reproducing accurate mail for use in destructive tests of the sort you have been involved with.

Jeanry, That mail was made of high carbon steel that was hardened and tempered.

Regards,
Erik
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby JeanryChandler » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:40 pm

For instance the mail will have to be made of wire having the same chemical composition as that of the mail you wish to study. This means making your own metal. This makes all mail produced today worthless for tests of this nature, mine included which fails because of the metal compostion. It could possibly be used for a Roman test, but that is about all.


I understand what you are getting at, but I had been under the impression that after the invention of the water powered bellows and the (water powered) barcelona hammer, that production of quantities of consistently good quality iron and steel was much more widespread.

If this is true, what you are talking about seems more applicable to the dark ages when they were doing pattern welded swords and such, and with the non Roman cultures of the Classical period.

Is that what you mean by the chemical properties of iron, and having to make it yourself? Weren't iron billets of a fairly standard quality available by say, the thirteenth century? Or are you just saying that modern commercially available industrial steel and iron just has different trace elements in it?

JR
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby Casper Bradak » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:09 pm

Round, flat, solid, riveted, slag content, uniform modern steel, they'll stop a cut, and if it's worth its weight it'll likely stop a thrust as well.
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby Tony_Indurante » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:43 pm

Eric,

I'm very interested to hear how these more scientific tests turn out. I think the same type of testing needs to be done on actual surviving swords- destructive, scientific analysis to determine things more exacting than wht you can get by pure physical observation. Hopefully you'll let us know more when the testing is complete.

While I can't say how exact ARMA's tests where (I wasn't there) I can say that a lot of practical info can be gleaned by just cutting on mail- it gives you an idea of it's strengths and weaknesses.

Both sets of data- the more scientific and ARMA's practical cutting are going to be needed for a thorough analysis.
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby Erik D. Schmid » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:44 pm

You are correct that the quality of processed iron increased, but not to the degree that we have today. Period examples of mail that have been studied metallographically show a wide variance in chemical composition. Much of this has to do with where the iron ore was mined and the smelting process used. Obviously some places were better at it than others.

Dark age mail was not that different from Roman mail. Granted it was not produced on the same level as that done during the 3rd century, but the basic process was the same. In fact the process of mail manufacture used by the Romans was essentially the same as that used by the Vikings. This style continued in use into the 14th century around Italy. Quite a bit of 14th century Milanese mail is basically identical to Viking mail of the 10th century. The Germans seem to be the ones who changed the process of link manufacture as I have stated previously.

In order to draw iron into wire the raw material has to be of a fairly uniform consistency. If it isn't then it will be prone to breaking when it is pulled through a drawplate. There can still be a certain amount of slag inclusions, but for the most part it has to be quite uniform. Almost all mail that has been studied has been shown to be made of simple wrought iron, or at best steely iron. There are examples of high carbon steel mail, but these are generally in the minority and don't seem to come into existence until late in the medieval period.

So to answer your last question, yes, modern steel is far different than its medieval counterpart due to the process in which it is manufactured. For the pieces I make I use pure iron, which is also not 100% authentic, but is closer than mild steel. For some applications I do use traditional wrought iron, but making my own wire raises the difficulty factor quite a bit and thus the price goes up. I will say that using wrought iron wire is a far cry different than using mild steel or even pure iron. It is because of the knowledge gained from the research I have done using all three that I find fault with tests of the sort described previsouly by Mr. Clements. It's not because I am looking to nit pick. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Just trying to do my best to get better information out to people.

Caspar, for tests of this nature to carry any real scholarly weight they have to be conducted under very strict guidelines. Also, the items being tested have to almost perfectly mimic their historical counterparts in order for any conclusions to be drawn as to what the historical pieces were or were not capable of.

Tests like the one ARMA and others have conducted do have their place, but you have to understand what their limitations are in terms of the data obtained from them and how this data can then be applied in order to help answer certain questions.

Of course the mail used worked well, but when all is said and done the main thing learned was what a modern reproduction made of modern materials was capable of. Do you see my point?

Before anyone states the obvious I will say it first. Were we to manufacture metal having the same properties as a specific example of period metal and then make it into mail we would still be using a modern reproduction. However, the resulting test data would be that much more informative.

Cheers,
Erik
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Re: Effectiveness of Mail armor

Postby JeanryChandler » Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:44 pm

I think the same type of testing needs to be done on actual surviving swords- destructive, scientific analysis to determine things more exacting than wht you can get by pure physical observation


I have an issue of popular science magazine from about 3 years ago with a fascinating article where they did some detailed chemical and electron microscope analysis of three Indian damascus steel swords which were donated from a private collection (the swords had to be cut)

The article focused on only one aspcet of the analysis, but it was an interesting one: it was about how the tiny traces of vanadium in the steel formed a kind of bridge at the wave crests between the layers of cementite (carbon-iron) and iron molucules, making it much stronger while retaining flexibility.

They were basically trying to figure out how this tiny amount of vanadium could have any effect on the strength and flexibility of damascus steel, and this detailed analysis proved how it indeed did have the effect. I'll try to find the magazine so I can list the date.

I have also read references of a similar experiment with some pieces of a pattern welded viking sword in which they were talking about the (apparently also beneficial) effects of phosphorus in the steel evidently introduced by the Vikings use of bone as a carbon source in the smelting process, but I don't remember where. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />
JR
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