Hans Talhoffer, A joke of a fencing master ?

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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: Hans Talhoffer, A joke of a fencing master ?

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:53 pm

Well, yeah, I know. But it's still so annoying whenever that happens. Guess that's why I usually stay away from most forums.
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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: Hans Talhoffer, A joke of a fencing master ?

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:09 pm

I really think most of these incorrect assumptions are a result of bad interpretations of the images in Talhoffer. He doesn't give us much in the way of instructional text, so without a basic understanding of longsword fencing, especially the Lichtenauer traditon, it's easy to interpret the techniques incorrectly. For example, this technique:

Image

The swordsman on the near right is said to have hooked his opponent's sword and will now wrench the sword away. Really, all he has done is set aside a murder-stroke by raising his sword to a high position coresponding roughly to Ochs, probably with a pass froward of the left foot. Many interpret the next "wrenching" part of the technique as pulling the sword back over the head so the the sword is pulled from the grasp of the opponent and goes flying back back behind you. This looks cool if you pull it off, but leaves you with your own weapon held very high (perhaps even behind your own head), almost parrallel to your opponent, and in a great postion for him to simply tackle you and begin wrestling (similar to what we see with the fencers to the left). Really, if you look closely at the picture, you can simply rotate your sword a little and drop the point, which will bind against and twist the hilt of his sword, probably popping it from his grasp on the blade, while bringing your point on line for a thrust to the face or chest. If you do it quickly and forcfully, it will at least move his sword out the way, and certainly give you a good thrusting opportunity. I think my interpretation is easier, safer, and is more in keeping with the idea of maintaining the intiative inherent in good longsword fencing. It should alslo be pointed out that it is reasonable to assume, as Jeffrey Hull pointed out in his article, http://www.thearma.org/essays/Talhoffer/HT-Web.htm, that this is likely to be an example of a technique best suited to armored fighting, although it is illustrated without the armour. When I first studied Talhoffer,by looking at Mark Rector's "Medieval Combat", most of it was a complete mystery. Now, after years learning from other practitioners and studying other texts as well as continued interest in Talhoffer, I can do what I feel is a valid interpretation of at least 80% of the material.
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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: Hans Talhoffer, A joke of a fencing master ?

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:39 pm

That is a very interesting interpretation, Matt. As you may or may not know, we (ARMA Gimo/Östersund) have a online/multimedia presentation of our interpretations of Talhoffer's halfswording techniques in the works. Our interpretation differs a little from yours, even though I find yours feasible too. But with one thing in mind though:

What Talhoffer actually shows with this plate is two viable options for the right fencer to use if his opponant protects himself from the Donnerschlag incorrectly; i.e. with a static, panic-block. In our opinion the phrase "Usz dem Tunrschlag ain Ryszen [From the "Thunderclap," a wrench.]" does not refer to any actions taken by the left fencer. It refers to the fencer on the right. The plate shows that if the left fencer just blocks the Donnerschlag (hence even giving it the name Thunderclap -from the smacking of the blades) you can either:

1) Drop your weapon and execute a wrestling throw

or

2) Once your Mortschlag (Donnerschlag) is blocked -pull your weapon back and wrench the sword out of his hand with the use of your cross.

This leads us directly to Plate 38: "After the wrench, the thrust into the face.

http://www.thearma.org/talhoffer/t38.htm (Please note that the right fencer is now shown as the left one. Talhoffer even shows us a counter to the Plate 38 attck -but I'll save that one for later. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

How Talhoffer thinks one should properly defend oneself he shows us on Plate 53. In other words; instead of more or less just staying put and stopping the blow above your head, you instead move towards his flank while deflecting his stroke -thus executing an offensive defence and setting yourself up for a hooking manouever.

All of these techniques will be expounded upon, and shown in video, in our upcoming presentation. We just have some retakes and some compiling of texts to do before we can put it online.

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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: Hans Talhoffer, A joke of a fencing master ?

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:07 pm

Joachim,

That makes a lot of sense and yes, the fencr on the right is indeed the one "wrenching." I guess I was thinking more along the lines of something like what is shown in plate 73 (can't find an image right now) which is something I've played with quite a bit. Interesting how the images often show several important concepts or techniques at once. Probably poor translation of the text is also to blame in part for bad interpretations, yours seems very solid. Thanks for your comments and I'm really looking forward to your complete presentation on this "stage fighter" Talhoffer. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: Hans Talhoffer, A joke of a fencing master ?

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:13 pm

Aha, you mean the follow-up Plate to my leg tattoo. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> Seriously though, Plate 73 is kind of the "point first" equalient of Plate 53. It just goes for the other flank instead. Leading with the point instead of the pommel. But I see your point now. (No pun intended.)

Interesting how the images often show several important concepts or techniques at once.


Definately. That is kind of Talhoffer at his forte. We've dubbed it his "double pedagogy" as it is something that occurs more than once throughout his fechtbücher; especially the 1467 Ed. I do have plans on including some words on that, as well as more general thoughts, in the presentation. Hopefully we will have it finished during Q1 of 2006. So stay tuned. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />
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Randall Pleasant
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Re: Hans Talhoffer, A joke of a fencing master ?

Postby Randall Pleasant » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:55 am

Joachim Nilsson wrote:
I'm curious to know exactly how they've been training Talhoffer's techniques to come to the conclusion that it's stage fighting. ARMA Gimo and ARMA Östersund have done exstensive training based on Talhoffer's fechtbücher and to us it's really clear that his techniques are anything but stage fighting.
Joachim

If Talhoffer work is stage fighting then that fool should be able to explain the special effects used in the following image. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Theater must have been really good back in the 1400s! <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />


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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: Hans Talhoffer, A joke of a fencing master ?

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:19 am

Randall,

ROTFL! Images like that is what I had in mind when I first heard about his statement. I think you can guess what my initial reaction was like. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
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