Randall Pleasant wrote:Philippephilippewillaume wrote:My understanding of VD is that this is a position he take when he is in what he call the zufechten. So he is either out of range/ his opponent will have to pass and extend so it probably do not mater as much as lest say fiore posta/guarda.
You noted that a good cut is related to the bio-mechanics as much as with actual strength. From the Lazy Vom Tag position a person simply cannot physically perform a cut with the same power and reach as they can when they hold Vom Tag with the sword over their shoulder (assuming that they know how to perform a proper cut). The bio-mechanics of the human body is the limiting factor! I can say without any doubts that from the Vom Tag guard ARMA members engage their adversarys at a much greater distance than the people I saw at the WMAW 2006 event. I can also say without any doubts that the sparring I observed at that event was clearly not on the same level as what once observes at an ARMA event. Attempting to fight with the hilt held in front of the chest is just not martially sound. Not suprizing one bad interpretation has a negative affect on other interpretations. For example, because of the way in which they cut from Vom Tag the manner in which people at the WMAW event perform Ringeck's Zorn to Zorn counter was, in my opinion, very poor - no reach, no attempt to actually cut their adversary, binding much too low to allow a quick follow up thrust or effective twitching, edge-on-edge bashing, etc.PhilippeJohn Clements wrote:If you interpret that image of that posture literally...But then you must interpret all the rest from that source literally too.
Not only do the VD images show the Vom Tag guard with the sword held in front of the chest, it also shows the right Ochs guard with the sword held over the head and the Pflug guard with the hilt held behind the hip. In right Ochs do you hold your sword over your head or do you hold your sword to the right side of the your head as shown in all the other historical images? In the Pflug guard do you hold the hilt of your sword behind your hip? Remember, if you take one of the VD images as literal then you must take the rest of them as literal.
Hello ran,
I think john said it all much better than me.
(but It took JC explanation for me to understand that it is what you were talking about.)
So no I do not take VT with the sword stuck to my chest, the blade resting on my shoulder and the quillon undere my arms but if you take a picture of me whist i take it (and you take at the right time) i will look somewhat like the picture.
(well less prancy...)
As you guessed I think in the ox he has his hand in front of his head (and above)
In the plough I think he has his hand at the level of his right hips.
But again for me the guard do only makes sense in the bind or in distance.
As an aparté
From my experience if the plough is taken with back hand in at lest at the same level of the front hips. The sheil is not that safe and it is better to do a scheitel (incidentally this how Dobringer describe alber), and that is where I go the idea that may be the German guards are just the most threatening way of holding the blade in each 4 generic position you can have you hands in. bottom to the side bottom to the front hight to side high in front (and straight along the middle if we want to include langen ort)
And so you can break any guard with master haw because all the guards are contains in the 4 positions.
phil