Vadi: all unterhau done with false edge?

[Matt Easton]

I agree Richard. For this reason I do not think that Fiore or Vadi could not do cuts that they do not describe, if the situation demanded it. However, we are still left with the fact that they are both very precise about how to do each of the cuts, Fiore even telling us the exact angles that should be used! This we may even consider surprising, seeing as Fiore was writing for the accomplished Marchese Niccolo III d'Este and Vadi for the Duke of Urbino. We should therefore perhaps call their described cuts as their preferred way of cutting. The way they advised. Still we come back to the same point that even in this most basic thing, they are very different to the Liechtenauer lineage of Masters.

Matt

[John_Clements]

Matt, I thought Fiore said something about how he studied in different countries from different masters, Hans the Swabian, etc.?

[Randall Pleasant]

Matt

I sometimes feel that I am seeing the same thing I saw in anthropology. Anthropologist talk about how different each culture is while downplaying the fact that people are really more alike then they are different. The differences are real, but so are the similarities!

There may indeed be a number of things that are clearly different between the styles, but in the end I think we are going to find that they are more alike than they are different. After all, there are only so many ways in which the human body can move and a sword can cut. At the very least, we should we not conclude that the styles are more similar to each other than either is to the swordsmenship of other regions of the world? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Easton]

"Matt, I thought Fiore said something about how he studied in different countries from different masters, Hans the Swabian, etc.? "

Hey John - Ok, I have to explain this for the good of the community! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
Yes Fiore says he travelled in many 'Patria'. Patria means country, but in Fiore's time Patria also meant regions - for example, Friuli can be known as a 'Patria'. So that statement in the Prologue does not really help us. We have records of Fiore's presence in various places throughout the late 14thC, and they are all in Italy.

The second point - Johannes the Swabian does not exist in any of the Prologues to any of the versions of Fior di Battaglia we have. Many years ago someone (I believe the Royal Armouries) leaked a very bad translation of the Pisani-Dossi version of Fior di Battaglia. Now some bright person decided that Giovanni Suveno ("a student of Niccolo di Toblem, of the diocses of Metz") was Johannes the Swabian! I am not sure how this great leap of logic was made, but there is unfortunately nothing to support it. No doubt Fiore (or a later author in the case of Pisani-Dossi) did 'Italian-ise' the names, just as with all the names in his Prologue, so Giovanni may be Johann, or John, but Suveno, as far as I know, does not mean Swabia. Further than this, while the diocese of Metz was in the Holy Roman Empire, it was apparently under a great Frence influence. Just like Genoa in North-West Italy was.

Matt

[Matt Easton]

Randall, I agree with your points, and used to revell at the similarities between Liechtenauer lineage and Fiore lineage. But at the end of the day, the two are different arts. Knowing about both is great, it may even give me an advantage one day, but combining the two in practice does not work because each says to do things that the other says not to.
So I can train in Aikido and Bujinkan, but when I fight I'm going to have to choose how I stand, move and attack... I can't do both styles at the same time! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />
If I study Fiore and learn to not cross my wrists in front of my body, because I know my opponent can close and disarm me easily, then how am I supposed to do a winden? <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

Matt

[Bart Walczak]

The basic german cuts are described in Doebringer, where he says that there are 4 basic strikes, two from above, two from below. As far as I remember, they are all made with the true edge.

So this IS different from basic cuts described by Fiore, Vadi etc.

Just a thought though.

[Guest]

What of Middlehau (sp?) Bart?

[Matt Easton]

From what I remember, mittelhau is only mentioned very rarely - maybe twice in Ringeck? (someone with better knowledge on this please step in!).. If we look at the plays/techniques in Fiore, we see a very similar case.

Matt

[Jake_Norwood]

Mittelhauen show up in Meyer, too. They're pretty standard, but in reality I don't think that they appear as often in real fighting. They aren't really delivered from a standard guard, nor do they and in one. In addition to that they aren't especially powerful and they are easily blocked/deflected/parried/etc.

Of course they have their place--they are used and it's important to know how to do them correctly (lest you screw up edge alignment or get disarmed, both common problems with beginners who use mittelhauen).

In Meyer the zwerchhau, using the false edge and generally coming at the head or shoulder, is the more common tarversing horizontal strike by far. Ringeck uses it more, too.

Vadi describes using the volante (mittelhauen) only from the knees up (well, duh, I guess), but then in his plates I don't recall seeing much use of them at all (I've only started working through it though, I confess).

Jake

Edited for typos

[Matt Easton]

This is very similar to Fiore - he describes them (from knee to head), but I can only think of one being described in a technique (the Punta Falsa play).
There are a few sottanis and the rest seem to be fendentes. I really must go and count them at some point! - Usually he doesn't say which cut has been done at him, but it usually *appears* to have been a fendente.
In my opinion Fiore's mezzani from the left is done with the false edge so that the point is at the face when the blades cross. If he did it with the true edge it would be the only cut that does not finish with the point in the face at the incrossada, and his disarms work very well against someone doing this with the true edge because their wrists are crossed.

Matt

[Bart Walczak]

Mittelhau? To my knowledge nothing like this is described in Doebringer - but alas, I might be wrong. The only "horizontal" cuts in Liechtenauer's are Zwerhau - done with the false edge from the right and with the true edge from the left. Exactly opposite to Italian <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Richard Strey]

Really!? Can you quote the source on that? I never gave that much attention.

[Bart Walczak]

Quote which source on what? I'm sorry, but your post wasn't clear enough for me.

[Randall Pleasant]

Richard

I agree with Bart that your question is unclear. When Bart says that there is nothing like that in the manual then there is nothing there for him to quote! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Easton]

Hahahaha!

I think he meant the Zwerchau quote, or maybe the 4 cuts quote.. Jeez I don't know - for a German guy Richard is asking for a lot of German quotes from us non-German guys <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />:D:D

Matt