Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

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Shane Smith
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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby Shane Smith » Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:04 pm

Stew wrote"I felt that it was too heavy overall as well as too blade heavy. It pulled to the ground a little too much when held in front of you. I'm sure that a different balance could improve my opinion of the piece, but I still think it needs to lose a little weight overall, which might solve the balance problem."

Hi Stew,
I think that as this particular blade is designed as an almost pure chopper,it is fitting that it be a bit nose-heavy. Indeed,Gus markets it as the XIIIa "heavy",so the weight is presumably greater than the other blades he makes that aren't part of the "heavy" line.I actually bought the "heavy" over the standard XIIIa looking for a more robust blade(It was assumed by me at the time that the "heavy" would have a tougher edge than the lighter weapons as well <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> ).You're right of course;it isn't agile and it isn't fast but it does have a great feel(in my hands at least) that is conducive to good cutting technique and edge alignment.I know the last bit is subjective,yet I've always liked big, slightly nose-heavy, manly "choppers" as opposed to lighter weapons no matter who makes them. My other sharp is a DT 5143 so I'm sure you see the pattern developing here <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

The XIIIa in question had quickly become my favorite cutting sword and I was(and am) dissappointed in the failure of it's edge after having it perform so well so consistently on all of the other targets I had taken it to. Hopefully Gus' new edge profile will alleviate the fragility of the edge and I can get my favorite cutter back to work. When this and the other blades arrive,I will be testing them against everything from the dreaded(and over-rated)plastic bottles right on through to various armors and everything I can lay hands on in between.I will document everything via video and stills in the interest of both furthering understanding and good scholarship.
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TimSheetz
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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby TimSheetz » Fri Jul 18, 2003 9:40 pm

Hi Stewart,

I used to have a similar view til I cut with Dan M's prototype. He, from the half arm, while holding his camera and not taking a step cut in two a target we had hanging, and had attempted numerous blades to (two handed) and failed to cut it.

After cuttingt with that, I re-evaluated my thoughts on sword weight. While it was heavier than the final blades will be I think, it clearly needed only to be guided to a target, as once it arrived, it would cut it.

This is the same type of blade that Dan beat againt a solid cylinder and a solid bar of steel as hard as he could in an attempt to make it break... he failed to make it break doing this.

It forever changed my outlook on sword weight distrubution, and with George's physics article added, it only seemed to reinforce that discovery for me.

That, being said, a lighter highly maneuverable blade is also a thing I like... just can't have it all in the same sword, I guess! ;-)
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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby Guest » Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:50 am

Hi Stewart

Shane's sword isn't for everyone. Its a XIIIa, and if you read the description of a XIIIa in Oakeshott's "Sword in the Age of Chivalry", you will see that he describes these as typically falling between 3.5 and 4lbs.

Shane's sword is 3.5lbs, and is "forward balanced" because its an early chopper. Cut and thrust longswords have a different kind of balance, more agile if you will.....

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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby Guest » Sun Jul 20, 2003 12:10 pm

I think that's about all that can be accomplished in this thread. Next is Shane's reaction to his repaired sword, and the other stuff being sent to him.

Once again I want to thank everyone for their professional conduct, and valuable input....

Stewart, the reason I cannot just add a heavier pommel to the XIIIa, is that'll throw off what I'm trying to accomplish with the balance'.

Have you ever considered an Albion Crecy? In the last year and a 1/3, I've had the opportunity to handle three of them, and cut with one. Very nice swords. Lighter than Shane's sword, with a closer center of gravity {to the hilt}. Albion is a very professional team, with very competent smiths and craftsmen and superior customer service. And they're a credit to the US sword making industry.

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George Turner
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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby George Turner » Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:02 pm

Well, not having a beveled edge sounds like the main problem. Knife makers often go with a 30 to 40 degree included edge angle, but I'm not sure what the geometry was on the failed section. A 2" wide double edged blade that's 3/16" thick will only naturally have about a 10 degree angle, which is too thin to support hard impact against steel. You have the compression forces from the impact, plus the rest of the blade is rapidly decelerating, which creates a bending moment, putting the back edge in tension and the lead edge in longitudinal compression. The only plane that isn't having compressive forces is the side-to-side plane in the area that hasn't started biting into the steel target yet. These forces can buckle and shatter a thin edge in several ways, which is why tools that strike into steel are never thin. For very hard and repeated impacts against steel, with a tool made of HSS, angles less 70 degrees can fail.

As the sectional area gets wider, moving back from the edge, the forces are of course getting lower, thus producing lower pressures, and the surface angle can be shallower without risking a fracture. So a multi-surface bevel, or a convex bevel, is probably the optimal structural shape from a failure standpoint.

On the other side there is a long area with some noticeable damage. When I made the comment that it sounded like a burr had snapped off, I'd say that was fairly accurate. It almost looks like an "edge" still, at the bottom of the "damage".


I think we must be using two different definitions of the word 'edge' and 'burr'. Knifemakers refer to a burr as the incredibly thin piece of steel drug out past the intended edge during sharpening, which feels very sharp but is easily removed, and won't stand up to any serious use. A good sharpening job doesn't leave burrs. Removing a burr, which everyone does anyway, and having the edge of your blade shatter are very different things, not easily confused. The edge your refering to is no longer the carefully shaped cutting surface, but just the jagged, tortured line where the steel now ends. True, the word edge is still an accurate description in one sense, but not in another.

Flipping the sword so that the body is facing me, it becomes apparent on inspection that the blade isn't perfectly symmetrical. The way the blade is roughed out on the machine, the fuller is dead center. The finished blade has the fuller offcenter by .03 inch. This led to a "tighter" edge on the one side than on the other. The tighter side failed, and the other did not.


If getting the fuller 0.03 inches off center results in a breakable edge, you're probably producing something very different from what a medieval smith made.. Very likely having the stock canted 0.01 inch or so shifted your final fuller location that far, with around a 0.6 degree difference in the angle of the two edges. Nobody sharpens to that degree of precision, so I wouldn't worry about the slight change in that angle instead of working to get it into the range of what won't shatter in normal strikes against steel targets.

I could find no evidence of cracks or any significant damage to the body of the blade.


I'd have my doubts about its integrity behind the fracture zone, since that area was obviously stressed far beyond its rupture point.

I took the sword with me to Tinker's place last nite, so the two of us could go over it and compare notes. The sword as is, is still a very functional sword. A sword with some edge damage, but the damage is "inside" the cop, not really a factor in the function of the sword, as a sword.....


Well, the "new knurled edge" certainly might make a nice marketing angle. The only problem with it is that it will still function pretty well until his hits the next hard object.

Its also easy to repair the damage. Not to make light of the damage, as it is definite, but from a mechanical point of view the damage is slight. Looking at the bottom of the damage, the "new" edge could be as "tight" as .015 inch if that's what I intended to do.


Um, my intention would be to throw that one in a bog, or toss it on the pile of unpleasant learning experiences. It you fix the one edge, you'd need to fix the other, since they really don't vary by very much.

However, over the last three months, I've started doing edges on heavy swords like this, around .025 inch. This gives a lot more support to the edge and still makes for a fine cutting edge.


But you thought your "expendable edge" design was fine, too. All we're talking about is a couple extra machining passes to produce an edge with a bit more strength. It might be easier to take a close look at the geometry of some authentic sword edges, instead of exhausting all the possibilities by trial and error.

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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby John_Clements » Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:53 pm

Shane &amp; Stu &amp; Tim,
It's not "weight" I am concerned about, it's mass distribution along a blade's length. That's why so many of us are so impressed with the new Albion pieces.

Btw, a crucial element not mentioned yet here in regard to this sword's failure, is that a sword that can't encounter another blade without its edge shattering is not very useful. Historical swords were capable of successfully encountering and surviving whatever they could encounter in battle. This means their edges did not disintegrate on meeting resistant materials. This is why we insist on having blunt and sharp versions of the same swords to work with. In my opinion there is no way this particular blade (nor several other Atrim models that I have seen intended as cutting swords, for that matter) could be used to strongly displace oncoming cuts or to strike down forcefully at oncoming blades without their edges being ripped up in no time flat. Make sense?

JC

“Swords must be tough, lest while we should make a thrust, they should break. Also, they must have a sharp edge, that when we cut, they may cut off what we cut.”
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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby TimSheetz » Sun Jul 20, 2003 8:30 pm

Hi John,

Correct, "mass distribution" is a more accurate term for discussing this. But if the sword has little mass, it's distribution will matter less, especially if the base bar of steel it is carved from is very thin.

I think the nature of what makes a good sword for me changed at that cutting test two years ago. Before then, I had the misconception that if the pommel was a "counter weight" that left the blade feeling extremely light it was good. After that, what makes a good sword became clearer to me, but simultaneously more complex as the factors identifying a good sword grew in number.

Tim
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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby Patrick Kelly » Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:50 am

This thread seems to be digressing, however, some important points have been brought up concerning the evaluation of a swords mechanics.

A common misconception is that, if a sword feels pleasant while swinging it back and forth, then it's a well balanced and mechanically sound weapon. Understanding things like mass distribution, distal and profile tapers, and cross sectional differential are vital to understanding a swords properties.

One other critical factor is understanding what a given types intended purpose was. A war sword of the early middle ages was not intended for the same mission as a bastard sword of the late middle ages. Their handling characteristics and mechanics are distinctly different.

I often read comments like "I like my swords to have a point of balance so many inches from the guard" or "A good longsword will blance 4 inches from the hilt and flex 6 inches from true". While these are all interesting points, in and of themselves they don't mean anything, and generally illustrate a lack of understanding. What was the intended purpose of the original that's being replicated? A sword may "feel" good but is it "right" for its intended use.

When we're discussing fantasy creations that have no historical basis these views may, or may not, have merit. On the other hand, when discussing historical originals and their replicas a better understanding is vital.

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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby John_Clements » Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:50 am

Well Tim, yes and no. There are real longswords I've handled that were surprisingly thin and light on their last quarter near the point, the foble, even drooping slightly when held flat out. But they were still extermely well made, hard and flexble. It's just that their edges were not brittle. Make sense?

Arms writer Frederick Pollock in 1911 stated, “A good sword should be elastic, so as to stand bending or a heavy blow without breaking or permanent deformation, and yet stiff enough to deliver a powerful thrust without yielding too readily from the straight: it must also he as light as is possible consistently with strength, and well balanced. All four desiderata are met in the main by the use of a suitable steel, properly treated and disposed, but balance is also dependent on the weight and form of the hilt.”


And as our friend, swordsmith Peter Johnsson, recently wrote:
“The function of the sword is decided by the shape of the blade, the cross-section in different parts of the blade, the gradual change in flexibility along the blade, its ability to absorb and distribute vibrations and shocks, and the form and character of the sharpness in the edge and point.” (Lindholm, p. 213).

So, as we've been stressing, for a good sword it's all about whether the blade can withstand shock as well as cut effectively.

JC
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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby Shane Smith » Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:35 pm

I think Patrick brings up a good point here.I would maintain that a replica swords "feel" is a subjective thing, so to say that; " 'I' don't like the balance of this sword,therefore it's a bad replica", is not a tenable postion.If the sword falls within the parameters set by the existing period pieces of it's type and pattern,it IS a properly balanced/weighted replica in a historically-accurate context.

Consider that one man may favor a blade-forward balance as it suits his individual style or needs while another may favor a bastard sword with a quicker tip for much the same reason.Who's right?They BOTH are from a particular point of view when one considers circumstance and personal preference.There is a reason that blades with particular and various qualities and designs were used in antiquity, and there is an equally good reason that modern practitioners will fail to agree on what makes a great sword when it comes to handling qualities today.It's because now,as then, individuals tend to be...well...individuals, with their own thoughts and perceived tactical needs. For one man to say that a replica "feels bad" and is too heavy in spite of historical specimens that define the very parameters of said weapon being in agreement is just not good logic <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />(This pre-supposes that the weapon in question is in conformity with the period weapons being replicated) If you don't like early cutters,buy something you DO like secure in the knowledge that what seems right to you is no more the standard than that which is preferred by someone with a differing opinion. History has validated those on all sides of this issue so who can claim to know what is “right” and “best”?
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Re: Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

Postby Guest » Fri Aug 08, 2003 2:11 pm

"So, as we've been stressing, for a good sword it's all about whether the blade can withstand shock as well as cut effectively." John Clements

Herein rests the underlying truth of the entire episode. The sword in question (while suffering damage) remained a functional weapon in contrast to two others, which failed catastrophically and were unuseable.


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