WMA Schools

[Sean_Gallaty]

It's unfair of you to presume my level of experience. I didn't mean to bait you with mention of boffers, but my point stands about concern of sparring with padded weapons. I've YET to see the situation where padded weapon sparring was secured against deevolution, though I look forward to doing so.

I have a 20 year old pair of bamboo shinai, the suede handles worn down from use and the edge cords repaired multiple times. Most of my contact sparring has been with unpadded bamboo splinted weapons. My unfamilairity with ARMA doesn't guarantee that I'm a LARPer, SCA'er or other fantasy-roleplayer.

So.


Edit: maybe I misunderstood your tone. No, I don't have experience with what you are using for padded weapons, and I haven't found documentation on the site to explain them.

The three things that I am most concerned about with padded weapons are - heavy contact weapon on weapon blocks (weapon damaging blocks), edge discipline (hittnig with non-edge hits due to rounded padded weapons), and 'tapping' scores.

A blow 'for effect' is slower and more deliberate than a 'tap', and trust me I've suffered some indignities sparring against people in certain organizations who were sparring 'for points' with taps that wouldn't hurt a naked child.

- nox

[JeanryChandler]

No - assuming they're willing to invest the extra cash in decent protective equipment, fencing can be done quite safely with steel blunts - at least with certain systems. Admittedly, German longsword, for example, might present problems with its emphasis on strong single-time counterattacks, but Silver and Bolognese sidesword, for example, can be done quite safely in relatively light equipment, assuming both fencers possess a little thing called control...

I am considering longsword primarily of course. But even with sidesword, I have seen all manner of sidesword simulators and you cannot cut full force with these safely with anything less than complete body coverage.

As for using "control", of course you always do that even with padded weapons, but to me this is often used as a euphemism for not fighting full-force full-contact.

If twenty pounds of of protective equipment considerably affect one's fencing, a trip to the gym might be in order.

I assume you know who you are talking to. I'm hardly in athletic shape but I can carry 20 lbs without noticing it, thats not the point.

Yep, but twenty pounds isn't exactly full armour...

I dont even know what specific kit you are referring to, but 20 lbs is hardly insignificant, and the weight is only part of the equation. Bulk and restrictions on movement are equally relevant. In the part of the world I live in heat as well.

The point is blossfechten is meant to be done with a minimum of protective equipment. If you have to train in even 20 lbs of armor you are probably distorting the actual experience significantly. Especially if you still have to pull your strikes and avoid targeting large parts of your opponents bodies.

Harnisfechten is a different type of fighting altogether, as you are well aware.

I'm not sure which groups you mean, but I've seen plenty of videos of people fencing perfectly well with steel - and of some extremely poor fencing with padded weapons.

Best wishes
Rabbe

I think some examples of good longsword fencing, ringen and staff fighting are among the clips from the recent Florida gathering.

I have seen fencing clips from Schola St George and AEMMA from their own site and i wasn't very impressed. If you know of some particularly good ones please post a URL.

Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

It's unfair of you to presume my level of experience. I didn't mean to bait you with mention of boffers, but my point stands about concern of sparring with padded weapons.

I'm not making any assumptions about your experience, but I just happen to know that only a few people around the country have been using the most modern type of padded wasters because they are a very new design. I personally made quite a few of the ones currently in use. Lance Chan in Hong Kong also makes modern high quality padded wasters, but most people outside of established WMA groups don't know of these new types of sparring weapons yet.

Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

Edit: maybe I misunderstood your tone. No, I don't have experience with what you are using for padded weapons, and I haven't found documentation on the site to explain them.

Understandable.

The types WMA groups have been using for about 4 or 5 years are flat with discernable edges, not tubular like boffers. They are also designed with appropriate wieght and balance exactly that of real steel swords.

You can see something of the shape and the flatness of the striking surfaces in this photo.



The wieght and balance pretty much precludes the type of taps you see in boffers. Check out the recent clips from the Florida Gathering.

Jeanry

[Chris Thompson]

How did swordsmen in the past address this issue? I recall that one master believed all training should be done with sharps! I'm not suggesting we do such a thing, but padded weapons remove some crucial psychological elements of training, including the caution that automatically results when you're facing a weapon that can really hurt you. The truth is, if you have to face a sharp sword, you'll be terrified. That's why fencing masters have always complained that fencers were far more aggressive in the salle than they would ever dare to be against a sharp blade. By making it relatively safe to fence so aggressively, padded weapons may be the most unrealistic training weapon possible.
In the Cateran Society, we fence with steel fencing broadswords from Popinjay and minimal protective gear (a fencing mask and gambeson). Facing a real sword, even though it's not sharp, you "prefer to study ways and means more closely" in the words of Baron Bazancourt, rather than rushing in and risking having that blade lash across your body. We also use singlesticks, which are equally capable of leaving a painful welt on an overly aggressive fencer. Yes, padded weapons allow you to fence "full speed and full contact"- but would anyone fight that way with a sharp sword? I don't believe they would.

[Joachim Nilsson]

Well, I know people who'd think more than twice before they close with me when I'm wielding a padded weapon.

As for gambesons: We do Blossfechten so gambesons are out of the question.

[M Wallgren]

I know that I think twice before I rush in on one with the kind of padded weapons we use. As I said before, I got hit with a padded messer over my hand with force enough to make blood be pressed up through the poors of the skin. Through a hockey glove....

That hurts like H***

Martin

[Sean_Gallaty]

Those do look nice, thanks for taking the time to post that.

It's hard to tell scale on those weapons without something else in the picture.

is the larger one an Oakshotte type 8 and the smaller one a type 9?

Is the smaller one intended to be what's referred to sometimes as an 'arming sword' or a 'knight's sword'?

where's the balance point on the larger sword?


the grip length on the arming sword if that's what I'm seeing seems longer than I expect it to be.

anyhow it's good to see that you use weapons with distinct edges. Using shinai (which I've learned a lot of bad habits from due to their eastern balance), you can put string chalk on the cord to allow you to judge the efficacy of your cutting strokes.

I apologize if I was too aggressive about the padded sword thing. That's an unfair prejudice.


- nox

[Stacy Clifford]

In the Cateran Society, we fence with steel fencing broadswords from Popinjay and minimal protective gear (a fencing mask and gambeson). Facing a real sword, even though it's not sharp, you "prefer to study ways and means more closely" in the words of Baron Bazancourt, rather than rushing in and risking having that blade lash across your body. We also use singlesticks, which are equally capable of leaving a painful welt on an overly aggressive fencer. Yes, padded weapons allow you to fence "full speed and full contact"- but would anyone fight that way with a sharp sword? I don't believe they would.

Many of us in ARMA do blunt steel freeplay with similarly light protection and no serious long-term damage. As for facing a real sword, if you intend to maim or kill someone then you had better bring your attack with speed and force and make the other guy react too late, whether you're attacking or countering. Aggression is a psychological weapon that can unbalance an opponent and it is instinctive for all armed creatures to use it in life or death situations. If you ever have the chance to spar with ARMA members you will see that it is our standard practice to treat the padded weapons as if they were real swords, to stop after any hit that would have been disabling with real swords, and to analyze and discuss the techniques that were used in each exchange in that context. There is no question that padded sparring has its limitations, but if approached properly it can be a very realistic training tool.

[Chris Thompson]

I'm not saying I would never use a padded weapon- under certain circumstances, I would. And yes, they can leave a bruise, though they aren't really dangerous in the way a blunt or a waster is. I also agree that aggression is a crucial component in combat. But the original question seemed to me to provoke some rather self-satisfied responses, so I'm playing devil's advocate. If you think other groups are "less martial" because they don't use padded weapons and fence "full speed full contact," perhaps we think ARMA is "less martial" because the padded weapons are psychologically unlike fencing with dangerous weapons. Or perhaps the different approaches offer different advantages and disadvantages, and there's no point in going around saying "Our group is the only pure martial arts group and everyone else is just doing LARP and dress-up."

[JeanryChandler]

Yes, padded weapons allow you to fence "full speed and full contact"- but would anyone fight that way with a sharp sword? I don't believe they would

I've heard this argument from AEMMA guys before, they talk a lot about the whole "invincible warrior sydnrome", and yet, when I watch them fighting in video clips, their bouts go quicker than mine or most of the ARMA bouts I've seen. Maybe it's all that armor they are wearing making them feel invulnerable...

Also, as Joachim and others said, if you fought against me with my padded weapon, you wouldn't feel 'invulnerable' after one blow... I could easily break down a door with one of my swords.

Finally, I have used my training in real life, twice. I was once attacked by some people with a steel pipe and was foced to defend myself with a wooden sign. Despite my clumsy weapon, my hangen counter worked exactly as it usually did in sparring, and saved me from death or serious injury.

Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

It's hard to tell scale on those weapons without something else in the picture.

The weapon on the bottom is 44" and 2.5 lbs with a 4" balance point, the weapon the top is 47", 3 lbs with a 4" balance point. Both are Longswords or bastard swords, probably closest match for types would be XVIa for the bottom and XXa for the top.

Jeanry

P.S. I thought Oakeshott Typology started at X?

[JeanryChandler]

If you think other groups are "less martial" because they don't use padded weapons and fence "full speed full contact,"

Nobody in ARMA said that. I said that. I am not in ARMA.

It is just my personal observation. I am a strong advocate of padded weapon use. Dont use this as a reason to fight with ARMA, I'm the only one saying it.

And frankly, I dont think you can really learn to fight without sparring full speed, full contact, and that includes any kind of martial arts training, from boxing to wrestling to various forms of EMA.

Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

However, the padded weapons are a really practical way to do full speed, full contact sparring without undue risk of serious injury. If you never go at it this way, it's like training to be a sprinter by practicing walking.

Thats an excellent point Matt. It's like practicing the whole decathalon in slow-mo...

Jeanry

[Jaron Bernstein]

Paddeds aren't exactly boffers. Especially if you use them "with all your strength" as the manual says. One of our guys a few weeks ago got a broken finger from one and I have twice been hit in the nuts with one hard enough to make sit there for a few minutes and not do much besides think about not having children. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />