Dagger Stabs

[JeanryChandler]

A dagger just doesn't have the stopping power of a longsword.

I'm not sure I agree with that. A dagger certainly can't cut like a longsword, and knives of the moder type are certainly less effective in stab wounds, but when it comes to the thrust, if you are talking about Medieval / Renaissance daggers which had blades frequently from 10-16" long, I don't see how a longsword is going to be any more lethal.

I think this idea that daggers are less lethal on impact is a myth that comes from role playing games. There was a good documentary recently on discovery channel which discussed some studies done by the British police about stab wounds to officers (in their efforts to find a knife proof body armor) and they claimed that the energy of a stab wound could be higher than that of a medium caliber pistol shot.

From what I remember from researching ballistics many moons ago, this is borne out by crime statistics from the 19th and earlier 20th century (when there were a lot more big knives, dagger and bayonetts around) where stab wounds tended to be more fatal than gunshots. If the blade is long enough, and wide enough, it's VERY dangerous, IMO.

Jeanry

[Risto Rautiainen]

Here's an interesting article about knives in the modern world. According to it knives are truly nasty... Gives you good insight.

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/EDGED%20WEAPON%20TACTICS%20AND%20COUNTER%20TACTICS.doc

[JeanryChandler]

Fascinating, some very good information here...

JR

[TimSheetz]

Jared,

Good post. Now I really want to knife fight you!

Let's make sure we take some time for this if we are at the same place at the same time.

The "non-duelling" aspect of this is key.

Peace,

Tim

[Shane Smith]

Jared,

Good post. Now I really want to knife fight you!

Watch out Jared, Tim has at least two daggers on him at all times <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ...I'm really NOT kidding <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jared L. Cass]

Oh yeah, Shane...Tim's the main reason I added #12 <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> . There were a good number of his prize playing bouts that ended with a quick and effortless "dagger draw and stab". Great stuff <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jay Vail]

With all due respect, some of these recommendations are incorrect and are not consistent with the advice of the old masters, particularly Silver. I have found Silver’s advice to be very practical and useful.

“1)Be aggressive. Move in when ever possible.”

Suicidal. Silver’s dagger fight is defensive. He does not advocate closing with the dagger but sniping at any exposed body part that comes within range. He emphasizes a cautious approach to the dagger rather than aggressive commitment. THis assumes that the other guy is armed. If he is not, then close quickly and aggressively by all means.

“2)Control opponents weapon/weapon arm.”

Yes, if it is offered. Talhoffer in particular relies on control of the dagger arm as the first step. However, this is possible only if it is offered by a fully committed blow. In a duelling situation you cannot count on such commitment.

“3)If possible, dammage the above...remove it's threat.”

Unsure what this means, unless you are referring to the weapon arm, in which case I agree, per Silver’s advice.

“4)Stab strongly and repedidly.”

Agreed. If you have closed and control the enemy’s weapon arm. Yes definitely if the enemy is unarmed.

“5)aim for soft areas/unprotected areas.”

No. Silver says strike at any part of your opponent’s body that comes within range. This usually means the hands and occasionally the legs. I am unsure this is what you have in mind. However, your next comment seems to clarify your intentions.

“6)only cut to: the throat, the wrists, the back of the hands, and the forehead/eyes.”

Yes. This is consistent with Silver.

“7)only cut to set up decisive stabs.”

Generally, I would agree. But stabs do not have to be preceded by cuts in every instance.

“8)Almost 100% of the time, move to the opponents outside.”

If that is possible. But see Styers, where he advocates the triangle step to the inside, which is a very effective response.

“9)Throw the opponent/break him whenever possible. Prefferably, throw the opponent onto his stomach”

Yes, if that is possible. Talhoffer covers armbreaks if you can get command of the elbow. See comment 2 above, however. I would not rely on throws once having closed with the dagger myself unless I get into a clinch and it is the only way to avoid a stab. Choosing the throwing option in dagger play is rather like making the decision to go to wrestling in sword fencing: you do it only because you are so close to the enemy that it is the safest thing to do because if you don’t you risk getting cut.

“10)Kick, punch, headbutt, claw, ect ALWAYS”

Using the off hand can be useful, and so can kicking be, but I think you’ll find that in a dagger exchange things happen too fast and revolve around use of the blade for those things generally to come into play in a duel. Your mind will be fixed on controlling or covering his knife hand, which will not free up your off arm for striking. Same with the feet. You need both of them on the ground to cover yourself against his blade. I cannot imagine when headbutting will be of any value in a knife fight. Others can try it. I prefer to stay alive.

“11)When possible while training, avoid a "dueling mindest" ie:drawn knife vs drawn knife. Instead, start out in an unarmed state or unarmed vs drawn dagger”

That is useful advice, since most knife fights aren’t fights at all but assassinations, and are certainly not duels.

“12)Most important while training: practice bringing the dagger into play.”

Good advice.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Be aggressive. Move in when ever possible."

I followed that advice in class last week. Literally running at my opponent trying to stick him at times. It almost always ended badly for me.

[Jared L. Cass]

Jay, thanks for the input. After rereading Silvers dagger advice, I agree with your assertions reguarding his fight.

But... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> the vast majority of sources we have concerning the medieval dagger fight seem to disagree with Silver.

Mair, Codex Wallerstein, Fiore, Goliath, Hans Cynner, Marozzo, Vadi, the Solothurner Fechtbuch, Talhoffer, ect depict the dagger fight just the opposite of Silver. Other than showing a very very very few "long range" attacks, most all of the fights are grapples/weapon control that put one in a position to quickly stab, throw, break, or any combination of those. I don't think you and I disagreee with this, but I just wanted to be clear that Silver appears to be the exception. I shouldn't have referanced him earlier as his dagger fight appears to be more dualing oriented...and that's just not how I view the dagger fight <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

" “10)Kick, punch, headbutt, claw, ect ALWAYS”

Using the off hand can be useful, and so can kicking be, but I think you’ll find that in a dagger exchange things happen too fast and revolve around use of the blade for those things generally to come into play in a duel. Your mind will be fixed on controlling or covering his knife hand, which will not free up your off arm for striking. Same with the feet. You need both of them on the ground to cover yourself against his blade. I cannot imagine when headbutting will be of any value in a knife fight. Others can try it. I prefer to stay alive"

I really disagree with you here. I simply mean that a person needs to realize that just because one has a weapon, it's not the only "weapon" to rely on. As far as kicks go..., I mean more along the lines of "knees to the groin" and as a follow up to stabbing and throwing the opponent. Are you serious about not head butting?! It's probably a difference in how we individually fight. Especially when closing quickly with an opponent (milliseconds after gaining control of their weapon or displacing it) I always have the opportunity to body check, headbutt, elbow, or knee. All while still having control and protecting myself from their weapon (providing I entered safely to begin with:) )Such movements aren't seperate actions. They happen naturally durring a fast and violent closeing action. Give it a try sometime and you'll see what I mean.

Other than that, it seems you and I understand and agree with eachother. I think <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jared L. Cass]

Jaron wrote: " "Be aggressive. Move in when ever possible."
I followed that advice in class last week. Literally running at my opponent trying to stick him at times. It almost always ended badly for me. "

Were you just running and sticking? Or did you control/cover yourself/ their weapon first?

If it was just running and sticking...of course it ended badly <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> A guy needs to gain control of the fight first. By just running and sticking, that's sort of like having " false vor". One needs a safe enterance. It's "Be aggressive. Move in whenever POSSIBLE" Not "Be aggressive. Move in like a kamakazie pilot" <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Tell more please! How was your approach? Did you move straight in or off to one side or the other? Was it a balanced and controlled closing action? Or was it a desperate off balance lunge? Ect?

I don't mean the above in a nit-picky criticizing way. Just curious.

Jared L Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jaron Bernstein]

I would move towards my opponent fast, trying to angle if possible. Often angling wasn't possible as Keith is pretty good. I was able to get angles on a less mobile Rocky, but he also isn't as skilled. While I did this I looked for an opening and stabbed. If that got blocked, I stabbed at another opening, and just kept doing that while moving rapidly towards him. Almost invariably he tied up one of my big committed stabs and stuck me in turn.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Were you just running and sticking? Or did you control/cover yourself/ their weapon first?"

I had a hard time getting control over his weapon. I figured, if he is busy dealing with mine, then I won't have to worry about his dagger. Ooops.

" One needs a safe enterance. It's "Be aggressive. Move in whenever POSSIBLE" Not "Be aggressive. Move in like a kamakazie pilot""

But when I tried that it turned into a circling "duel" that stayed in Zufechten range.


" How was your approach? Did you move straight in or off to one side or the other?"

I tried to off angle. Didn't work well. That may be more my footwork at the problem, though.

" Was it a balanced and controlled closing action? Or was it a desperate off balance lunge? Ect?"

I kept my legs under me at all times while going rapidly forward. I didn't over extend my arm. I most often ended up taking fast passing steps to get into kreig range while giving a series of strong stabs as I got into that range. And it went very badly for me.

We are thinking of doing a rondel "press drill" like the waster press drill to see if that helps.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jaron -real quick, I remember from sparring with you in the last 1.0, that irregardless of how the fight was unfolding you always kept going forward. This is very brave and probably neccesary in a large melee type fight, but in my humble opinion you need to learn a little side to side and rear movement as well. You are really very predictable and therefore also manageable. For someone who is new you are probably a handful because you do not stop going forward, but for someone with some expirence---- Just my take on your style- Aaron

[Jay Vail]

Mair, Codex Wallerstein, Fiore, Goliath, Hans Cynner, Marozzo, Vadi, the Solothurner Fechtbuch, Talhoffer, ect depict the dagger fight just the opposite of Silver. Other than showing a very very very few "long range" attacks, most all of the fights are grapples/weapon control that put one in a position to quickly stab, throw, break, or any combination of those. I don't think you and I disagreee with this, but I just wanted to be clear that Silver appears to be the exception. I shouldn't have referanced him earlier as his dagger fight appears to be more dualing oriented...and that's just not how I view the dagger fight

Jared, your observation that these sources depict a different kind of dagger fight than Silver is, I think, accurate. However, that does not make them contradictory to Silver. I have spend the majority of my training time on analyzing the techniques in all these sources (except for Mair and Goliath). In my analysis of these sources, they depict responses for different kinds of fights. You will not that almost without exception, these sources deal with defense against a committed attack, which is the manner in which you will most likely be assaulted with a knife on the street. In a committed attack, the attacker does not precede his major blow with a feint or some other distraction, but instead launches it from a standing stop with the intention that it land and kill. The defenses depicted in the majority of sources you mentioned revolve around addressing this concept.

One must also bear in mind the fact that the dagger techniques in these sources are intended for use in armored and unarmored situations, interchangably. Gladiatoria, for instance, depicts its dagger techniques using armored men, and those techniques are identical to those found in Fiore, the Codex, and Talhoffer.

Silver on the other hand does not address these concepts at all. He is concerned strictly with the dagger-to-dagger *duel* between unarmored men using double edged weapons of the kind prevailant in the late 1500s. These weapons could be used efficiently for both cutting and thrusting (which is not to say that earlier weapons had no edges and couldn't cut; they could). He supposes that both men have their weapons deployed at the ready, whereas in the knife assault typically one man has his weapon out and the other does not.

The short implistic answer, then, is that the sources you list depict techniques for combat, while Silver describes concepts for the duel.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"-real quick, I remember from sparring with you in the last 1.0, that irregardless of how the fight was unfolding you always kept going forward. This is very brave and probably neccesary in a large melee type fight, but in my humble opinion you need to learn a little side to side and rear movement as well. You are really very predictable and therefore also manageable. For someone who is new you are probably a handful because you do not stop going forward, but for someone with some expirence---- Just my take on your style-"

You are correct in this. This time I tried to side step a bit more, but I never went backwards. Sometimes I circled and angled for position in the discouraged "dueling" way.

1. I certainly take your criticism that my "buffalo" approach <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> has problems in leaving one vulnerable. It sure got me stuck a lot.

2. However, I was under the impression that for rondels we are most explicitely NOT supposed to hang back, circle and fish for openings in the "dueling" manner. From what I read, you are supposed to make committed attacks with a full step at your opponent (either straight in or at an angle).

3. The problem I run into is that I followed that advice and did badly, while when I hung back, circles and "dueled" I did much better.

4. So I am not so sure of the wisdom of making those big lunging ("take a big step forward and stab him with your bodyweight behind the rondel") stabs now.

See what I mean?

<img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

When you guys do your rondels, what have you found?