Formal Competitive Sparring Tournaments?

[Ryan Woo]

Now all this being said I fully understand and agree with problems put forth by ARMA members, however rather than the "It's too hard, or too expensive, or too dangerous" attitude, I think we should be looking for ways around these problem to creat a Competition that test REAL swordsmanship, in a way that is as realistic as possible. One start I think would be nylon wasters which from what I've read hand the most like a realsword (other than blunts) and offer almost as much protection as a padded. The second step would be instead of padding the sword you pad the fighters.

Grant,

Without a contructive solution to solving a problem, a mere suggestion has little to no value.
For a martial art to have any meaningful 'tournament', it must have set rules within which the participant can freely fight with no restrictions (like I said, within the rules).
Your suggestion that padding the fighters would enable the ARMA to have a competitive tournament has a flaw. The more protective gear you wear, the less authentic your movement becomes since it's meant to be non-armoured combat.
If there's a tournament within the ARMA, deprived of the mechanism to prevent the participant from swinging a fully committed lethal blow (in other words, control) at his opponent, what's to stop him from hospitalising his opponent? What's to stop him from giving his opponent a dangerous full thrust aimed at his less protected area for the purpose of gaining stopping power so as to avoid a double kill?
Boxers wear gloves to minimise injuries so that they can punch each other without the need to worry about seriously injuring one another during a match. But it comes at the expense of realism. Apparently, bareknuckle fighting is different from modern sport boxing which has more emphasis on sportsmanship while sacrificing to some degree (although there is no question that it is a challenging sport) the authenticity of the actual fighting skill with fists.
So the question we need to ponder upon is, which is more dangerous between a bareknuckle fist and a wooden/plastic waster? That is, if a major sport like boxing has failed to adopt both authenticity and safety without sacrifing one, how would you pull it off with HEMA when wasters are far more lethal than bareknuckle fists?

ALthough I had thought this thread dead, I want to respond to this post.

Lets look at MMA (mixed martial arts). They are not bare knuckles, however, they do wear gloves... 6 ounce gloves. What does 6 ounces mean? It means nothing. You can feel the punches the same as without gloves. Really there to protect your knuckles.

Kali fighters use headgear and light padding when they fight, and I see NO restriction when they fight. SUre, the winner doesn't "kill" the loser, but what do you want in competition? Did they Kill back in the day when knights would compete for fun??

Instead of critizising someone for an idea, suggestion, or post as to "their solution", perhaps you could offer an idea of how this could (but seem to be NEVER) happen?

Forums, I thought, were for promoting ideas, questions, solutions? Especially for those that are new, or are starting out in the art that have little knowledge. We should answer these posts as such..I hope.

With that... Have a nice day all!

Steve,

Are you, by any chance, implying that MMA matches in the octagon, ring, or cage reflect how fights are fought in reality?
Yes, those professional fighters train everyday and they certainly have higher chance of winning against those not trained in the art. But in place of control, the rules ensure that no life-threatening damages (as well as ones that can help end a fight quickly) occur. That means all the sweet variables such as eye-gouging (and eye-jabbing), ear/hair pulling, biting, grabbing/kicking/punching in the groin, small joint manipulation, etc have become unthinkables these days.

So, let's compare the potential damages here.
A full hook punch (w/ gloves) delievered by an MMA fighter vs. A full swing with a single-handed 26" rattan Kali stick on the padded torso area vs. A fully committed zornhau (diagonal cut) in the collarbone without control with a 48" two-handed longsword made of hickory, plastic, or even steel (blunt) *shudders*

And no, Steve. Back in the old days, knights fighting for sport (play) wouldn't have killed their opponents on purpose. And still, many died in such tournaments.

I already explained in my earlier post why it could not happen without sacrificing either safety or authenticity of the art in our present days. Are you saying that as someone who opposes the idea of a modern day tournament, I should come up with a solution to make it work?
Where's the logic?

Have a good day.

[Steve Fitch]

Now all this being said I fully understand and agree with problems put forth by ARMA members, however rather than the "It's too hard, or too expensive, or too dangerous" attitude, I think we should be looking for ways around these problem to creat a Competition that test REAL swordsmanship, in a way that is as realistic as possible. One start I think would be nylon wasters which from what I've read hand the most like a realsword (other than blunts) and offer almost as much protection as a padded. The second step would be instead of padding the sword you pad the fighters.

Grant,

Without a contructive solution to solving a problem, a mere suggestion has little to no value.
For a martial art to have any meaningful 'tournament', it must have set rules within which the participant can freely fight with no restrictions (like I said, within the rules).
Your suggestion that padding the fighters would enable the ARMA to have a competitive tournament has a flaw. The more protective gear you wear, the less authentic your movement becomes since it's meant to be non-armoured combat.
If there's a tournament within the ARMA, deprived of the mechanism to prevent the participant from swinging a fully committed lethal blow (in other words, control) at his opponent, what's to stop him from hospitalising his opponent? What's to stop him from giving his opponent a dangerous full thrust aimed at his less protected area for the purpose of gaining stopping power so as to avoid a double kill?
Boxers wear gloves to minimise injuries so that they can punch each other without the need to worry about seriously injuring one another during a match. But it comes at the expense of realism. Apparently, bareknuckle fighting is different from modern sport boxing which has more emphasis on sportsmanship while sacrificing to some degree (although there is no question that it is a challenging sport) the authenticity of the actual fighting skill with fists.
So the question we need to ponder upon is, which is more dangerous between a bareknuckle fist and a wooden/plastic waster? That is, if a major sport like boxing has failed to adopt both authenticity and safety without sacrifing one, how would you pull it off with HEMA when wasters are far more lethal than bareknuckle fists?

ALthough I had thought this thread dead, I want to respond to this post.

Lets look at MMA (mixed martial arts). They are not bare knuckles, however, they do wear gloves... 6 ounce gloves. What does 6 ounces mean? It means nothing. You can feel the punches the same as without gloves. Really there to protect your knuckles.

Kali fighters use headgear and light padding when they fight, and I see NO restriction when they fight. SUre, the winner doesn't "kill" the loser, but what do you want in competition? Did they Kill back in the day when knights would compete for fun??

Instead of critizising someone for an idea, suggestion, or post as to "their solution", perhaps you could offer an idea of how this could (but seem to be NEVER) happen?

Forums, I thought, were for promoting ideas, questions, solutions? Especially for those that are new, or are starting out in the art that have little knowledge. We should answer these posts as such..I hope.

With that... Have a nice day all!

Steve,

Are you, by any chance, implying that MMA matches in the octagon, ring, or cage reflect how fights are fought in reality?
Yes, those professional fighters train everyday and they certainly have higher chance of winning against those not trained in the art. But in place of control, the rules ensure that no life-threatening damages (as well as ones that can help end a fight quickly) occur. That means all the sweet variables such as eye-gouging (and eye-jabbing), ear/hair pulling, biting, grabbing/kicking/punching in the groin, small joint manipulation, etc have become unthinkables these days.

So, let's compare the potential damages here.
A full hook punch (w/ gloves) delievered by an MMA fighter vs. A full swing with a single-handed 26" rattan Kali stick on the padded torso area vs. A fully committed zornhau (diagonal cut) in the collarbone without control with a 48" two-handed longsword made of hickory, plastic, or even steel (blunt) *shudders*

And no, Steve. Back in the old days, knights fighting for sport (play) wouldn't have killed their opponents on purpose. And still, many died in such tournaments.

I already explained in my earlier post why it could not happen without sacrificing either safety or authenticity of the art in our present days. Are you saying that as someone who opposes the idea of a modern day tournament, I should come up with a solution to make it work?
Where's the logic?

Have a good day.

*sigh*....ok...NOW I give up.

/dead thread.