WMA Schools

[david welch]

Paddeds aren't exactly boffers. Especially if you use them "with all your strength" as the manual says. One of our guys a few weeks ago got a broken finger from one and I have twice been hit in the nuts with one hard enough to make sit there for a few minutes and not do much besides think about not having children.

I received a near knockout with one from a liver shot. <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[Randall Pleasant]

Chris Thompson wrote:
Or perhaps the different approaches offer different advantages and disadvantages, and there's no point in going around saying "Our group is the only pure martial arts group and everyone else is just doing LARP and dress-up."

Chris

You are totally missing the point! Yes, there are indeed advantages and disadvantages to the different approaches. I joined ARMA specifically because I feel that ARMA's approach, the ARMA method, has far more advantages and far less disadvantages than the approaches of other organizations &amp; groups. I have been a student of John Clements and a member of ARMA for five years for the simple reason that John and his senior students teach the most realistic interpretation of historical Medieval &amp; Renaissance swordmenship in the world.

[Gene Tausk]

I haven't had the "honor" of sparring with Joachim yet <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

However, I have had more than my share of bumps and bruises from being on the receiving end of contact weapons (aka "padded" weapons, although when you are being hit with full speed and power they don't seem so padded to me <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ).

Sparring with correctly made contact weapons, such as Jeanry's, can be a lesson in how to use proper technique. Contact weapon sparring is a vital part of the ARMA curriculum and one which is very necessary. It is essential to spar with wasters and blunts as well, but with contact weapons, that "all out" factor applies which really can hone fighting skills.

Fortunately, no one in ARMA ignores this vital part of training (at least, no one that I know), so this may help answer the question posted at the beginning of this forum.


----------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Directors - ARMA Southside Houston Study Group

[Chris Thompson]

> feel that ARMA's approach, the ARMA method, has far more advantages and far less disadvantages than the approaches of other organizations &amp; groups>

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. If you prefer the ARMA method, then by all means you should use it. But other people have differing opinions, and they have reasons for those opinions. What I was objecting to was the apparent hubris of some of the responses. Too many ARMA folks seem to take a sweepingly dismissive view of living traditions from East or West, any reconstructed methods other than your own, and even the historical manuals themselves if they seem to contradict ARMA's pre-conceptions. Indeed, I seem to recall a thread recently that questioned whether some of the historical fencing masters were even qualified to write the manuals they wrote- all because what they wrote didn't match the ARMA method.

[david welch]

What I was objecting to was the apparent hubris of some of the responses.

Of course, you have to give us credit for at least keeping it here, and not going to their websites to bother them and explain how wrong they are.

Now that would be an awesome display of hubris.

[Randall Pleasant]

Chris Thompson wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion, of course. If you prefer the ARMA method, then by all means you should use it. But other people have differing opinions, and they have reasons for those opinions.

So what does those other peoples opinions and the reasons for their opinions have to do with me when I am expressing on the ARMA forum my opinion on what set ARMA apart from other organizations and groups? Are you suggesting that I should care about their opinions? I can assure you that I do not care about their opinions. By the way, since you appear to want to make sure everyone's opinion is valued can we expect that the next time ARMA and its members are being flamed on other forums that you will step in and say to those people, "Well, the ARMA people have differing opinions, and they have reasons for those opinions"? It would be especially helpful given that our opinions have been band by some of those other people simply because our opinions were different than their opinions!

What I was objecting to was the apparent hubris of some of the responses.

My answers were clearly rooted in my pride in being associated with such as wonderful organization and the best swordsmen in the world. Arrogance? Sure there is arrogance. If I wanted swordmenship without arrogance I would have to weedhopper and studied the Eastern arts, gotten in touch in my inter child, and in peaceful harmony with the world.

Too many ARMA folks seem to take a sweepingly dismissive view of living traditions from East or West

Most of the ARMA members I have interacted with have expressed respect for many of the living traditions of the East and West, such as Boxing, BJJ, etc, and many of them practice and even teach these arts. I too share their respect. However, in regard to any of the so-called Western living traditions that claim a direct, unbroken, and un-modified line back to the sword arts of the Medieval and Renaissance then I can assure you that you sell me short when you say that I have only a sweepingly dismissive view of them. I completely dismiss them and have no respect for them. All of the old masters died and their titles died with them.

Too many ARMA folks seem to take a sweepingly dismissive view of ... any reconstructed methods other than your own

No one on this thread have dismiss the methods of all other groups and organizations. Many people outside of ARMA are doing great work We aknowledge and make use of their work. But again, we believe the ARMA method is best and we are happy to see that some of the other groups are moving in our direction.

Too many ARMA folks seem to take a sweepingly dismissive view of ... even the historical manuals themselves if they seem to contradict ARMA's pre-conceptions.

Now this is a case of outragous arrogance. <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" /> You come onto the ARMA forum and tell its members that they are dismissing the historical manuals because of their pre-conceptions. You have either not read what our members have wrote or you have failed to understand what our members have wrote - most likely due to your own pre-conceptions. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> In the words of David Welch, what an awesome display of hubris. <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" />

[Chris Thompson]

I was under the impression the ARMA forum was a public forum for all Western martial artists, not simply a private list for ARMA members. If I was mistaken, please let me know and I'll stop posting here.

>If I wanted swordmenship without arrogance I would have studied the Eastern arts, gotten in touch in my inter child, and in balance harmony with the world>

>I completely dismiss them and have no respect for them. All of the old masters died and their titles died with them.>

You've proven my point, and there's nothing I could possibly add. I'm done with this conversation.

[david welch]

If I wanted swordmenship without arrogance I would have to weedhopper and studied the Eastern arts, gotten in touch in my inter child, and in peaceful harmony with the world.

[Brian Hunt]

Hello Chris,

yes this is an open forum to all, but it is still an ARMA forum. As such, you can expect an argument if you come here and start to put down ARMA training and methodolgy. Just as I would expect problems if I was to go to the sword forum and start dismissing/insulting many of the groups (whose work I respect) that post there. I am proud to be an ARMA member, and yes I do believe that the way that ARMA does things is the best way and that we are the best group. If I didn't, I wouldn't be a member of this fine organization. However, that pride is not meant as a put down to other organizations whose members probably have smiliar feelings about their group. Many, if not all, ARMA members have very strong opinions, and will express, then defend them. If you disagree, that is fine, but most ARMA members will want reasons, quotes, etc. As for western living traditions, classical fencing, etc., I have yet to see one that goes back farther than the late 18th century or early 19th century. Since I feel that most sword traditions changed with the advent of the small sword, and sporting traditions, I do not feel that what they have to offer is truly applicable to the study of say Lichtinauer, Fiore, Meyer, Mair, or other such manuals. This is a common belief and opinion among ARMA members. If you have proof of a living tradition that goes back to the 15th or 16th century, and has kept its roots and not giving them up for foil, saber, epee then lets talk, but I will want definitive proof of such claims.

Thank you for your time. I hope you continue to post here because alternate points of view are healthy, just remember that we may get fiesty if we feel we are being attacked rather than having a friendly debate or disagreement over a technical point. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

cheers.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Chris Thompson]

Hi Brian,
I think you're right, 18th century seems to be the oldest. And I agree, that's not relevant to Fiore etc. But it is relevant to the rapier- in fact, Gaugler's lineage through Parise preserved rapier and dagger training into the 19th century at least- this is referenced by Baron Bazancourt, who fenced against Parise. So when these schools claim to have preserved some rapier and dagger methods in their lineage to more recent times, there is every reason to believe them and to respect their knowledge. I wasn't trying to attack ARMA, but I don't agree with the dismissive attitude shown by some towards other schools. One person claimed that only ARMA practices "pure martial arts" and others practice LARPing and re-enactment. Another dismissed Asian styles as "getting in touch with the inner child," and said he had "no respect" for classical fencing masters. That is, in a word, ignorant. I appreciate your comments and I'm not here to bash ARMA. But mutual respect might be a better way to approach other schools of swordsmanship, rather than the attitude shown by some in this thread.

-Chris Thompson

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

Hi Jeanry,

I am considering longsword primarily of course. But even with sidesword, I have seen all manner of sidesword simulators and you cannot cut full force with these safely with anything less than complete body coverage.

As for using "control", of course you always do that even with padded weapons, but to me this is often used as a euphemism for not fighting full-force full-contact.

I'm not entirely sure what one needs "full contact" for in fencing, since one obviously cannot train to take hits from a sword as he could train to take punches. I agree about the neccessity of full-speed fencing, though, and will admit that with some weapons and systems, using pulled blows propably isn't as practical as it is with some others.

I assume you know who you are talking to.

I'm afraid I don't. Sorry if I offended you somehow, though! Please rest assured it wasn't intentional if I did.

I'm hardly in athletic shape but I can carry 20 lbs without noticing it, thats not the point.

Yes it is! If you can carry 20 pounds of protection "without noticing", then it propably won't exactly ruin your fencing, either.

The point is blossfechten is meant to be done with a minimum of protective equipment. If you have to train in even 20 lbs of armor you are probably distorting the actual experience significantly.

I don't know - I thought blossfechten was the type of fencing one would be doing against a relatively lightly armoured, or unarmoured, fencer, not practise done unarmoured. Liechtenauer isn't exactly my forte, though, so I propably shouldn't argue on this.

I think some examples of good longsword fencing, ringen and staff fighting are among the clips from the recent Florida gathering.

I never said you can't fence well with padded swords. My point is, you can *also* fence well with a variety of other simulators.

I have seen fencing clips from Schola St George and AEMMA from their own site and i wasn't very impressed. If you know of some particularly good ones please post a URL.

I rather like them, to be honest - I well prefer them over some of the ARMA clips I've seen. I'll try and see if I can find some others, though.


Hi Randall,

Now this is a case of outragous arrogance. You come onto the ARMA forum and tell its members that they are dismissing the historical manuals because of their pre-conceptions. You have either not read what our members have wrote or you have failed to understand what our members have wrote - most likely due to your own pre-conceptions. In the words of David Welch, what an awesome display of hubris.

I do recall a thread a bit ago, in which I mentioned a quote from a Renaissance fencing master who advocated hard edge-to-edge parrying. The reply I got was that the master in question was "idiotic" and didn't know what he was talking about because of this.

Apparently some of us know better than he, a 16th century fencing master with centuries of lineage behind him, did...

Best wishes
Rabbe

[Joachim Nilsson]

Rabbe wrote:

I'm not entirely sure what one needs "full contact" for in fencing, since one obviously cannot train to take hits from a sword as he could train to take punches.

Ehh... That is not why we do full contact sparring. Full speed, full contact is nessecary because weapons behave, and techniques work, differently when applied in speed and with force. Doing things with speed, but devoid of force, breeds false impressions of how the techniques work and what one can do with them.

For instance: Whenever Martin and I pratice with the dagger, as soon as we've gotten the techniques down, it's all out on force and speed. Full speed, full force, full contact. Especially if it is in sparring. And yes: we do our dagger training and sparring with wooden rondell daggers. And no: We have no more protective gear than gloves and masks. The point I'm trying to make is the following: If you, for instance, train someone in unarmed dagger defences against a dagger-wielding opponant, and do so exclusively without force, he will not be properly prepared for a real, committed attack because we will be under the impression that he can go about his defences at his usual leisurely pace. Which is a sure way for him to get a dagger smack dab in the middle of his face. Or the opponant will walk all over him.

I don't know - I thought blossfechten was the type of fencing one would be doing against a relatively lightly armoured, or unarmoured, fencer, not practise done unarmoured. Liechtenauer isn't exactly my forte, though, so I propably shouldn't argue on this.

Why wouldn't one train Blossfechten unarmoured? Anything else would defeat the very purpose of that training. If not, I might as well start training techniques for fighting in armour unarmoured and claim I'm doing Harnischfechten. Once again it's about trying to avoid to breed false impressions and interpretations. if I had the financial means I would even pratice in period clothing from time to time. I will not, however, don more protective gear than absolutetly nessecary for Blossfechten (i.e. gloves and fencing mask).

[Mike Cartier]

I totally agree with Joachim Nillsons above post by the way..

in fact, Gaugler's lineage through Parise preserved rapier and dagger training into the 19th century at least- this is referenced by Baron Bazancourt, who fenced against Parise. So when these schools claim to have preserved some rapier and dagger methods in their lineage to more recent times, there is every reason to believe them and to respect their knowledge.

Well call me a sceptic but i would have to see some proof of this. Noone is doubting that arts can contain some methods of the old duelling ways, sport fencing contains some. But existing lineages with intact martial arts? I seriously doubt it.

The only people I have seen claiming this are the Martinez folks but they seem to have a poor opinion of sparring which seems rather out of step with a fighting art.

[Shane Smith]

This is indeed a public forum and as such,anyone who abides by the forum rules( http://www.thearma.org/forum/ ) is welcome to participate.

Of course, when coming to an ARMA forum, one may expect a bit of pride among the ARMA membership in it's method. That said, each ARMA member is an individual with his or her own thoughts and ideas. No individual's responses here can be taken as representative of the whole in the absolute sense.

In reading through this thread, I see no real violation of the forum policies save that partisan organizational rivalry is perhaps trying to worm it's way into the discussion,and if it does, that will be dealt with immediately.

What I largely do see is ARMA members stating exactly why they feel their method to be superior with no personal insults involved.That is how one debates, with the facts. A bit of wit and humour does of course creep in from time to time but personal attacks are not tolerated although opinions certainly abound. Truth be told, we are known to disagree with one another as well. That's all to the good.

Keep it scholarly gentlemen.

[Jako Valis]

Hi!

Full speed, full contact is nessecary because weapons behave, and techniques work, differently when applied in speed and with force.

Full speed and full contact is not the same thing. Controlling a sword cut is not the same as pulling a sword cut. If you really are skilled, I'm sure your sword cuts are always well supported, and when need be, you can put pressure on your opponents parries and posture to break them. The same way, if you are skilled, when you see an open line you can go as full speed as you would go if it was the real thing and give your partner light contact not to break his/her neck or other bones.

I see it being a bit silly to condition yourself to take hits by blunt swords or wasters - you can't really condition yourself to take sharp cuts either. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Fiore even tells us something in the lines of "with sharp swords failing one single cover brings death".

- Jako