Dagger Stabs

[Jay Vail]

2. However, I was under the impression that for rondels we are most explicitely NOT supposed to hang back, circle and fish for openings in the "dueling" manner. From what I read, you are supposed to make committed attacks with a full step at your opponent (either straight in or at an angle).

3. The problem I run into is that I followed that advice and did badly, while when I hung back, circles and "dueled" I did much better.

4. So I am not so sure of the wisdom of making those big lunging ("take a big step forward and stab him with your bodyweight behind the rondel") stabs now.

See what I mean?

Jaron, you are correct that the committed attack is the thing that most of the manuscript dagger defenses are intended to address, so you were not wrong to attempt it.

However, you fell victim to what usually happens in freeplay, the tendency to convert it into a duel. In a dueling situation, dueling techniques -- a tendency to fight cautiously with a heavy reliance on feints and noncommitted, probing attacks -- usually (tho not always) prevail. The committed attack is weak in the duel but not on the street, where it relies on surprise and speed to overwhelm the victim.

I hope you don’t feel bad from your experience. You learn from every hit you suffer.

[david welch]

3. The problem I run into is that I followed that advice and did badly, while when I hung back, circles and "dueled" I did much better.

A lot of the trouble I think I see people talking about here is that they are starting with false assumptions from a false position... you are starting equally armed, with equal initiative, at range. That is a duel.

Try setting up your "sparring drills" up to stop that.

One of you has a dagger on his belt. The other doesn't. The person that has it can only defend the dagger, he can't draw it. The unarmed man has to take it away and use it on the "armed" man. Once it is out though... who ever can control it can use it.

You both have daggers, but can't use them until/unless the fight goes to the ground

Dagger vs longsword from wrestling over the sword

you have to grapple until a third party yells "now!" then you can try to draw and stab.

You have to grapple until a third party throws a dagger on the ground between you.

Start mounted and being pounded on. Then try and draw and stab.

Have two unarmed people hit you high/low and take you to the ground. Try to protect your dagger, draw your dagger, use your dagger.

You both have daggers on your belt, but can only use each others...



Look for ways to turn this into a fight. Then when you are in the fight... look for places to use technique.

I heard someone describe it this way once, and I like it. Think of it as eating a big meal. You have a plate of meat and potatoes, surrounded by side dishes and condiments. You don't try and make your meal out of the stuff on the side... that is your meat and potatoes. But every now and then, your opponent will offer you a side dish. That is when you use one of the techniques.

[JeffGentry]

Hey David

A lot of the trouble I think I see people talking about here is that they are starting with false assumptions from a false position... you are starting equally armed, with equal initiative, at range. That is a duel.

I would say it is sigle combat as opposed to a duel, I say that because even on a battle field you may find yourself in a situation where you and your opponent are equaly armed be it spear's, longsword's, or dagger's.

Look for ways to turn this into a fight. Then when you are in the fight... look for places to use technique.

In my mind once the dagger's come out it is a fight and you need to alway's be looking for place's to use technique, To me a fight is a fight whether it be dagger, unarmed, or longsword it is just a slight change in mindset, From what I see alot of the unarmed block's and lock's are used in dagger also, an overhead strike block unarmed is the same in physical execution as it is with a dagger in the right hand.


I think what happen's is people get wraped up thinking about the dagger and can't see the big picture because they are not confident enough, If I know I am weak on footwork I may "spar" and work on getting offline while defending and not strike just concentrate on using the dagger hand and free hand to block and move, then after a round or two if I feel comfortable I will start to attack.


our first concern should be winning our second should be there weapon, not the other way around.


Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

"you are correct that the committed attack is the thing that most of the manuscript dagger defenses are intended to address, so you were not wrong to attempt it."

But if it doesn't work (as an offense, not a defense) then why in the hell should I make such a big attack, unless I am able to ambush the guy?

"However, you fell victim to what usually happens in freeplay, the tendency to convert it into a duel. In a dueling situation, dueling techniques -- a tendency to fight cautiously with a heavy reliance on feints and noncommitted, probing attacks -- usually (tho not always) prevail. The committed attack is weak in the duel but not on the street, where it relies on surprise and speed to overwhelm the victim."

Are you saying that in the duel (2 aware and rondel armed opponents) I should instead circle and snip rather than give a committed attack?

While I think that does work better (for me at least) in actuality, it does seem at variance with the manuals I am familiar with.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jaron,

you asked how are rondel fights go, and usually we start off doing some circling and measuring, then though we spend alot of time in the indes, portion of the fight where we use the non-weapon hand and our bodies to get in there for an attack, they are usually committed blows, but we do not overreach. Try not to lunge out so much in some of your attacks, this keeps you off-balance.

(I am refering to some video I was sent of you guys doing a little sparring.) -one more small piece of advice as well, is sometimes we have a tendency to overanalyze some things, granted it is a healthy part of our endevours, but sometimes it can distort it into something it's not-

A committed attack is a fierce and powerful thing- it's not even on the same level as sparring, not even close. When someone wants to kill you-or do you harm, they come at you fast and hard. We are trying to duplicate some of that feeling with the knife fighting, but in general, there is no pain penalty involved with being hit with the rondels, so you are usually not "afraid" of the encounter which can also lead to some false conceptions about how and when you would move.

I was intrigued by the idea of using stun guns as dagger substitutes to deliver that pain penalty, but I do not think my training partners would agree- Aaron

[TimSheetz]

Hey guys, great discussion.

I think that the committed attack MUST be part of a defensive technique as well. By that I mean you must also launch some sort of action to disrupt the opponents weapon arm. Pushing their weapon away and closing and attacking add up to be pretty effective I think.

Tim

[JeffGentry]

Hey Tim

By that I mean you must also launch some sort of action to disrupt the opponents weapon arm. Pushing their weapon away and closing and attacking add up to be pretty effective I think.

I have had the most success by exactly that method, either binding onto the weapon arm with my free hand as I attack, or by moving in little slower and deflecting there attack with the free hand as I make my own attack, I use timing in what I think is similar to the way Cappo Ferro describe Tempo in his Treatise.

Jeff

[M Wallgren]

A few comments on your videoclips.

What kind of tools do you use, they seem quite short for being rondelldaggers.

Why do you not use the reversed grip, lot´s of blossens present themself but you cant reach them in the grip you have in the clip.

Sometimes it seems you telegraf little to much by showing the dagger, Talhoffer show one of the hidden guards and you can also hide the dagger behind you left arm or your right.

Just my thinking!

Have a nice day!

Martin

[Mike Cartier]

What kind of tools do you use, they seem quite short for being rondelldaggers.

yes they are simply pvc cores with padding on the end.

Why do you not use the reversed grip, lot´s of blossens present themself but you cant reach them in the grip you have in the clip

I htink you must be looking at the edged knife clip, to my knowledge i have never done any Rondell or stabbin type of knife with a forward grip. Generally speaking i think the reversed grip is best for stabbing and the forward grip best for cutting.

Sometimes it seems you telegraf little to much by showing the dagger, Talhoffer show one of the hidden guards and you can also hide the dagger behind you left arm or your right.

yes now i am sure you are watching the edge dagger video, fighting style there is pure Filipino kali and nothing to do with HEMA and I just threw it in there to show the difference between the types of dagger fighting. The telegraph is intentional to draw a response . I wouldn't hide my edged blade behind my back as it would take too long to get into play against another edged knife which can quickly and easily flick out and wreck my day. Concealment is great until the fight starts then i like o be as lcose to the target as possible so that the slightest motion can threaten the opponent.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"then though we spend alot of time in the indes, portion of the fight where we use the non-weapon hand and our bodies to get in there for an attack, they are usually committed blows, but we do not overreach. Try not to lunge out so much in some of your attacks, this keeps you off-balance."




"By that I mean you must also launch some sort of action to disrupt the opponents weapon arm. Pushing their weapon away and closing and attacking add up to be pretty effective I think."

Aaron, Tim,

I think that might be what I am missing. I tend to just go with the dagger and not try to first tie up the other guys rondel first. Try that next week and see how it goes. Thanks for the advice.

I don't think the stun guns would be so popular, though
<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[TimSheetz]

Jaron,

Excellent. I am hoping to hear of some carnage.

Tim

[Jake_Norwood]

For what it's worth, I think that even in the "squared off" fight, or duel as we're calling it at the moment, the Committed Attack is not foolish, nor does it work poorly. While I agree that it will not get in as many hits as a snippy method, the purpose is to kill your opponent, not score a "touch" or even deter him from agression.

Try this: instead of striking in a huge downward plunging arc, strike by "aiming" your elbow at your opponent, then unfurling the attack with the downward (or diagonal, or whatever) stab. It's faster, the range isn't much different, and it's much, much harder to deal with in defense. Also, don't spare the rising stabs from Underhut to the belly or even chin.

Jake

[M Wallgren]

yes they are simply pvc cores with padding on the end.

Filippo Vadi tells us that the rondell dagger should reach from your hand to your elbow. This is more or less consistaet with the rondells depicted in, for instance, Codex Wallerstein and Talhoffer's different fechtbücher. This length of rondell greatly changes the scenario and the offensive and definsive capabilities you have.

htink you must be looking at the edged knife clip,

No.

to my knowledge i have never done any Rondell or stabbin type of knife with a forward grip. Generally speaking i think the reversed grip is best for stabbing and the forward grip best for cutting.

I beg to differ. My experience is different. Once again both CW and Talhoffer depicts both the "icepick grip" as well as the "sword grip" being utilized. Hence the technique where you deflect aganist a stab with the low shield. Then there's also the so called "French thrust" in CW where you more or less thrust with the dagger as you would with a rapier. (The same thrust also appears in Talhoffers Alte Armatur und Ringkunst) That particular thrust is deceptive and has got very great reach.

In my sparring the "sword grip" has been so effective that I had to force myself to use the "ice pick grip" a bit more to not be too predictable.

yes now i am sure you are watching the edge dagger video, fighting style there is pure Filipino kali and nothing to do with HEMA and I just threw it in there to show the difference between the types of dagger fighting. The telegraph is intentional to draw a response . I wouldn't hide my edged blade behind my back as it would take too long to get into play against another edged knife which can quickly and easily flick out and wreck my day. Concealment is great until the fight starts then i like o be as lcose to the target as possible so that the slightest motion can threaten the opponent.

Just to clarify: No, it's the rondell video clip I've been watching.

[Mike Cartier]

Just to clarify: No, it's the rondell video clip I've been watching.

Hmm not sure what to say then, i never use anything but the Reversed grip in my Rondell work, haven't begun using forward grip with rondells at all yet.
Yes you are correct that a forward thrust is good, i only meant that it has more ease in the development of its power and a stronger structure to strike with so i tend to favor it.

you are right about the Rondell size, we just haven't gotten around to making them more accuratly yet.

[M Wallgren]

Just give the french trust a try, shifting grip frekwently is also also a good way to make the advesary uncertan of what is coming next.

This you can practis in the sofa back home infront of the TV <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />.

I even change hands from time to time. Try to utilize all the possibillitys of the Rondell.

Hope it helps you in your futher training an d Please put up mor daggerplay vids and I give you more good advice.

Have a nice day.

Martin