New Plastic Wasters...!

[Manos.Fragkiskos]

Hello to everybody.

Trying to enter into the With Intent site, in order to purchase one of my own, I found out that it is no longer operational. Does anyone of you know if they move to another site or if that is something temporary?

Thank you,

Manos Fragkiskos.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

It looks like it is still up. Maybe the server was down for a while.

http://www.freewebs.com/wiwasters/About.htm

Here is the link that works for me.

[Jeremiah.Phipps]

...could someone inform me of what type of plastic is used as I would like to try my own hand at making a waster...

I haven't seen an answer to this yet. I (and perhaps others) would like to try to make one for myself, so if someone "in the know" could share this information I would appreciate it.

I tried to email Eric at WI Wasters but the email just bounced back.

Thanks in advance,
Jeremiah

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Yes, he is still in operation, there have been some problems with the site from time to time.

Look, about this type of plastic he uses, tell me why he should have to give you that info..? No offense, but the guy has worked for about three years developing a quality product that he can offer for us WMA's. The last time this happened, the guy set up shop and started making his own and selling them.

In the long run this competition will benefit us all as practictioners, but I find it strange that people come on here and demand to know what type of material he uses, so they can "make thier own" or rather, "not have to buy one" and support the greater cause by having these products improved.

I have never heard of people getting on websites and asking for the scematics for Albion swords, so that they can "make thier own" do you guys no see how silly this sounds to me?

Go back and read the "5 questions asked" piece on the website and see where I said that we all need to support each other in a community, this means dropping a dime, when someone comes up with a decent training tool, not asking for the formula so you can go off and make it too...make it better, for cheaper using your own ideas- but hey like I said, I am not his employee I have to buy everything just like you folks...but I am a little sick of this kind of mentality..AP

[Randall Pleasant]

Arron

You make some really good and important points.

I would also add that even if someone has information on the type of plastic used in the WI wasters it would be un-ethical for them to share it since it would in fact harm WI as a business. In addition, there may be legal problems. I'm not a lawyer but my guess is that if I got my hands on the source code of Microsoft Windows I would be stepping off into very hot legal water if I openly shared it with people who I know were wanting to use it.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Aaron,

The last time this happened, the guy set up shop and started making his own and selling them.

Is this in refrence to me? If so, I will say that that Eric kindly gave me a hint that pointed me in the general direction of the correct family of plastics but not the name of the plastic in question. I had to figure out things from there on my own and was only able to do so because I have been working with plastics since the mid 80's for things like the helmets I make and I already had a general idea of what plastic it probably was after handling the ones you brought to Vegas.

I also agree with you as to why should someone have to share their research with anyone. Do what Eric did and put the time and money into your own research until you figure it out or come up with something better. I have actually had people email me and demand to know what plastic I use in my sparring helmets, how I shape it, and demand that I give them my patterns and tell them my suppliers for materieals used. Then they get miffed when I politly tell them no I will not do this.

I would like to add that Eric had been kind and helpful to me and has made a couple of important suggestions to further improve my initial product, and that I have also shared information with him about how to build steel armour and have sent him several patterns to do so. I am grateful to Eric for the information he and I have shared and have really enjoyed talking with him on the phone and at the International event. He makes a very nice product and I am proud to have purchased and own one of his custom longswords with a pear shaped pommel that was built to my length specifications. I spend as much time using his waster as I do the one I made for myself.

Another interesting internet phenominon I commonly see is that when people don't get an immediate responce to an email inquiry from a provider, they jump on a forum and demand to know why "so and so" isn't in contact with them and then usually ask if they are still in business. I see this all the time with overworked armourers over on the armour archive. Maybe the guy is just out of town for a week either for busness or pleasure.

All the best to those who desire to make their own, but please don't email me for the name of the plastic used in these wasters. That is Eric's secret that he was kind enough to point me in a general direction for and I will not reveal someone else's secret. Instead do Like Casper Bradock did and go out and find some plastic of your own and start making some weapons and find out what works or doesn't work. He has a couple of training tools he made from a plastic he found that works for him. He had them with him at the International event.

all the best to the do it yourselfer (of which I am one), but you shouldn't expect that other makers should or will tell you what and how something is made, just be grateful when they do.

cheers.

Brian Hunt
GFS

P.S. Aaron, I double checked my queue for helmets, and you are definetly in it. I am spending the day working kinks out of my new helmet making equiment I put together to improve my product and I intend to start shrinking that queue ASAP one of which is yours.

[Jeremiah.Phipps]

Yes, he is still in operation, there have been some problems with the site from time to time.

For a moment, I thought your post was going to be helpful.

Look, about this type of plastic he uses, tell me why he should have to give you that info..? No offense, but the guy has worked for about three years developing a quality product that he can offer for us WMA's. The last time this happened, the guy set up shop and started making his own and selling them.

No one has said that he "should have to to give" this information. Most of the communities and groups I am (or have been) part of believe in a free exchange of knowledge and ideas (to better the group as a whole). I have lived my life with these ideals, and it pains me to see someone take such a negative stance on a harmless question. Before you argue the level of “harm” the question has, keep these points in mind.
1) This was a public question on a public forum. i.e. It was directed to anyone that has experience in plastic wasters. Not just Eric at WI Wasters.
2) This was not a request for diagrams, step-by-step procedures, tools, techniques or the like. If anyone wanted to steal business from WI Wasters it would be easier and more beneficial to purchase a waster from him to reverse engineer it.
3) No waster manufacturer (that I am aware of) uses a “special recipe” plastic exclusively for wasters. It is “off the shelf” stock.
4) Even if the type of plastic was some special trade secret, there is no reason those who make the wasters can’t ignore questions like mine; or better yet, respond with a kind, “We here at <company name> would rather not share that information on the bases that sharing such information may lead to additional competitors resulting in a reduction of market share.”

In the long run this competition will benefit us all as practictioners, but I find it strange that people come on here and demand to know what type of material he uses, so they can "make thier own" or rather, "not have to buy one" and support the greater cause by having these products improved.

I find it strange that some people see simple questions as demands. I also find it strange that a group that solicits its members to make their own padded, practice blades and wooden wasters, would be so opposed to members making a “better performing” waster for themselves.

I have never heard of people getting on websites and asking for the scematics for Albion swords, so that they can "make thier own" do you guys no see how silly this sounds to me?

Go back and read the "5 questions asked" piece on the website and see where I said that we all need to support each other in a community, this means dropping a dime, when someone comes up with a decent training tool, not asking for the formula so you can go off and make it too...make it better, for cheaper using your own ideas- but hey like I said, I am not his employee I have to buy everything just like you folks...but I am a little sick of this kind of mentality..AP

Are you saying we should only support when it comes to dropping a dime? It seems you are not giving me much community support. I have a dozen reasons to make my own waster, none of which are “to not support the community”. A little more effort in helping would be better received than prejudging my intents.

Jeremiah

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jeremiah,

I also find it strange that a group that solicits its members to make their own padded, practice blades and wooden wasters, would be so opposed to members making a “better performing” waster for themselves.

Ummm, while ARMA does have information out there on how to make your own training tools (I wrote an entire article on how to make your own fiberglass training rapier that is on the ARMA site based on information orignally developed by someone else), it doesn't solicit members to make their own tools, it just provides information if you want to. You can just buy the tools instead of make them and many people choose to do so. The plastic waster developed by Eric was developed by him personally and not by ARMA, though many ARMA members such as Aaron helped him test and improve his product, it is his personal work and as such he has a right to keep it to himself or to share it as he sees fit.

As for sharing of information, I am happy to share a great deal of the information I have on how to build many different things from armour to knives to swords, just don't expect me to tell you everything based upon the idea that it would be better for the group. I also have translations of manuals and interpretations that I have been working on that I intend to publish, would you then argue that I should give them away for free because it would be better for the group as a whole despite the amount of time and learning that I personally have in my work?

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hey Brian, no- I know you and Eric have a good working relationship. I do think Eric was the one who got the big ball rolling though, and I am happy to see you give him credit where it is do- that's fine enough said on that issue.


I have no time to get involved in this silly argument. Jeremiah, sorry my post was not as "helpful: as you would have liked, but that's my stance, and your point by point explinations and such will not change it.

Paint whatever picture you want but you are for sure not the only guy asking, again and again for his type of plastic, where it came from, etc, etc.

When and if you develop a better way and tool, I will come calling and be the first to tell you exactly what I think. It's not meant as a negative post, but in our society we need good capitalism, to help make these tools profitable, so that more are encouraged to develop them. That's the final equation.

Brian's also correct about the e-mail contact buisness stuff. These guys work out of thier homes, when they can. If they do not answer there is a reason. Just because you ask for a product does not mean that you have an order!

Also note this well: You should not be contacting other people about your orders, that is between you and Eric and Brian!

PSS- To my knowledge eric has not worked out Internation orders yet. He has no way of filling those yet. It's a paypal, shipping issue I guess-

That's all, I have spent waaayyy too much time on this all-ready. I am Eric's friend and training partner, not his Rep- I pay for everything just like all of you- !- later, AP

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Aaron,

Hey Brian, no- I know you and Eric have a good working relationship. I do think Eric was the one who got the big ball rolling though, and I am happy to see you give him credit where it is do- that's fine enough said on that issue.

Fair enough, though I would be interested to know privatly who you were referring to as having set up shop.

I completly agree that Eric got the ball rolling on the plastic wasters, as far as I am concerned he can have all the credit for a great idea I am just lucky enough to be able to ride his shirt tale on this one. He builds a beautiful training tool and I think that anyone who buys from him will be pleased with their investment, I also think I make a nice training tool as well and hope that anyone who buys from me will also be pleased.

Good to talk with you, I look forward to the next time I get to see you face to face and do some training and hopefully some sparring.

all the best,

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Alan Abu Bakr]

I'm not a lawyer but my guess is that if I got my hands on the source code of Microsoft Windows I would be stepping off into very hot legal water if I openly shared it with people who I know were wanting to use it.

Now that, if you could get away with it, would be very nice. It would eventually result in versions of windows that don't suck so much.
(using a microsoft product as an example wasn't really so good)

I have actually had people email me and demand to know what plastic I use in my sparring helmets, how I shape it, and demand that I give them my patterns and tell them my suppliers for materieals used. Then they get miffed when I politly tell them no I will not do this.

Actually, I wish you would tell someone how you make your helmets, so that helmet production increases.
(well not to someone who demands to know, of course ...and certainly not me)

Most of the communities and groups I am (or have been) part of believe in a free exchange of knowledge and ideas (to better the group as a whole).

...which is what made me utterly surprised, at the response.
Especially since the ARMA homepage has instructions for making sparring weapons, including what materials one should use, making me believe that this community was one such as you speak of.

it doesn't solicit members to make their own tools, it just provides information if you want to. You can just buy the tools instead of make them and many people choose to do so.

I remember reading, on the ARMA homepage, something in the spirit of how one shouldn't sell or buy sparring weapons, but building your own, which frustrated me, because I am lazy, and wanted to buy one instead.

Also... "many choose to do so"?
HOW!?
I've asked around for places to buy them from!
I know of RSW (and a place that makes a longsword that's supposed to be good), and nothing else.

I have no time to get involved in this silly argument. Jeremiah, sorry my post was not as "helpful: as you would have liked, but that's my stance, and your point by point explinations and such will not change it.

Shouldn't the thing to say you sorry for, primarily be your misunderstanding of his intent, and your negative attitude?
(of course, I'm not demanding that you do. Your free to ignore this or disagree with it [I'd prefer the former])

It's not meant as a negative post, but in our society we need good capitalism, to help make these tools profitable, so that more are encouraged to develop them. That's the final equation.

Well I do see your point, but I don't exactly see the Free Software Foundation going down the drain.
Well, given that this is a more material issue, money is a bit more important, though.
Still, I think your being a bit too zealous.

[Randall Pleasant]

It's not meant as a negative post, but in our society we need good capitalism, to help make these tools profitable, so that more are encouraged to develop them. That's the final equation.

Well I do see your point, but I don't exactly see the Free Software Foundation going down the drain.
Well, given that this is a more material issue, money is a bit more important, though.
Still, I think your being a bit too zealous.

In my work I use a lot of Open-Source software, including the JBoss (EJB, etc.) application server. I also use the WebLogic application server. There are very big differences between JBoss (free) and WebLogic (mucho $$$) other than just the price. JBoss is like driving an old tractor while WebLogic is like an new 18 Wheeler. In other words, JBoss is free but it is also has no real interface for easy control, where as WebLogic has a very nice interface. Likewise the MySQL database is free, but it can't even come close to matching an Oracle ($$$) database. We call these difference the "price of free". A free MySQL database works good to store the messages of a forum, if it goes down for a day the only cost of a day without some online interaction. But if the database of a business goes down for a day the cost (thousands, millions, billions) be much more than the cost of a commerical database such as Oracle or Sybase. So yes, I could make my own wasters and bucklers but I don't because I don't want to pay the "price of free" for my equipment.

[Axel Pettersson]

Alan, look me up this weekend at swordfish and we'll have a go with the nylon wasters. It seems one of our members found a plastic he think will work (I have tried one he made and agree), if you are happy with them you will soon be able to support your home market by buying Swedish . again, I refer to either the great sparring videos with nylon wasters found on this site, or the one on my own (www.ghfs.se).

see you soon!

/Axel

[Alan Abu Bakr]

Likewise the MySQL database is free, but it can't even come close to matching an Oracle ($$$) database. We call these difference the "price of free".

That may be true (I am not really familiar with those programs, so I can't tell), but there are many examples of cases, where the open source alternative is equal to, or better then (far better, in some cases), the commercial ones.

So yes, I could make my own wasters and bucklers but I don't because I don't want to pay the "price of free" for my equipment.

Well naturally, not everyone is quite as skilled. I wouldn't build my own equipment, because I want it to be really good, and I don't have that kind of skill.
Of course, I don't see how that is in any way relevant, as to the so called "price of free".

Axel: Sure : ) I hope he gets the balance and handling right.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Alan,

Actually, I wish you would tell someone how you make your helmets, so that helmet production increases.
(well not to someone who demands to know, of course ...and certainly not me)

A clever armourer could figure it out if he wanted to put the effort into it, I did. As for helmet production, I am in the middle of changing how I make the helmets so I can increase production several fold and do something about that large waiting list I have. I hope to shortly have the kinks worked out of my new methods and get cranking out the helms.

Also... "many choose to do so"?
HOW!?
I've asked around for places to buy them from!
I know of RSW (and a place that makes a longsword that's supposed to be good), and nothing else.

I assume we are discussing padded weapons here since you mention RSW. You could pay someone such as myself to make one for you, Jeanry Chandler in New Orleans makes and sells padded weapons, or you could try these guys who make a pretty decent padded weapon that SFS Jake Norwood put his moniker on and that I have used and like. http://www.edhellen.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=EA&Product_Code=padded_waster&Category_Code=Wasters

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS