WMA Schools

[JeanryChandler]

Jako Valis wrote:

I see it being a bit silly to condition yourself to take hits by blunt swords or wasters - you can't really condition yourself to take sharp cuts either.

Lol! I thought Joachim made this quite clear. NOBODY is trying to condition themselves to take hits. That is absurd. The point is to condition yourself to MAKE HITS. Or more accurately, to strike and thrust and cut effectively. Our point is that if you dont do full-speed full-contact as at least a significant component of your training, you will NEVER LEARN how to actually fight.

Striking at someone who is attempting to counter at full speed is VERY DIFFERENT from striking at half speed. Striking with pulled impacts is a great way to train yourself not to strike effectively, and will also slow you down to where you lose a real fight against a roughly equal opponent who is striking full force, full speed.

I dont understand why this seems so confusing it is self apparent to me. You couldn't learn how to box by doing everything half speed or by doing drill only, you have to spar.

Jeanry

[Joachim Nilsson]

Jake wrote:

So shut up everybody, pick up a sword and a manual, and train.

Can't we have something similar to that in a pop-up box every time one tries to log in to the forum?

"Have you done your training and study today? If not: RAUS!"

<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey Sean

I'll just add a few of my thought's on ARMA, ARMA is not a "school" perse we are a conglomerate of like minded folk's who are working and helping each other to achieve one goal with a certain method, which is to try to recreate with historical accuracy the western battlefield and dueling martial art's from a very specific time period of 1300-1610/50, while most do research and study other period's they are not the focus of the whole group.

While we do have a lose ranking system it is being continualy revised and updated, We do not believe what we do to be static because with our scholarly pursuit and physical application with our 4 tool's we will discover when we are wrong and then correct ourselve's and the group as a whole, we do require you show us when we are wrong by research and practical application i think this is what cause's problem's of the nature you are seeing we have folk's tell us we are wrong and only want to show in research because the practical application doesn't work if we as a group see the application not working we still will use that to learn why not to do something or it may just provide insight that some other "scholar" need's to accomplish something else, those who have Formal school's and make a living from that aren't able to go to student's who have been paying them and say "I was dead wrong" student's would leave quickly in alot of case's.

Hence they get bent and perturbed by our very pragmatic way of doing thing's and requiring that it be consistantly applicable, it doesn't have to work all the time just a good portion of the time.

If you notice we do alot of class's and get together's to discuss and demostrate in person to each other what we are doing and discovering, so that we can gain even more insight as to what we are doing as individual's and as a group and help each other it is i think this spirit of coperation that realy set's ARMA apart.

[JeanryChandler]

Jake Wrote:

So shut up everybody, pick up a sword and a manual, and train.

I disagree with you Jake. Discussion of theory is great, interpreting the manuals is of utmost importance, but I also think the issue of using padded weapons for training is very important to the future of WMA. I dont want to see WMA turn into some kind of stale drill-and kata-only dance form like some EMA weapon schools became over the years.

Sparring is what keeps WMA honest. I feel very strongly about this which is why I have always shared my designs with the WMA community rather than keeping them secret so I could sell more weapons.

Boffers and LARP groups have given the concept of padded weapons a bad image, but I think I have contributed to some degree to proving that padded wasters can be made in a realistic enough manner to make them a very valuable training tool. I think they will continue to improve and eventually, this will simply no longer be a debate. I believe that if our ancestors had this technology they would have used it for training as well.

Jeanry

[Aaron Pynenberg]

-like shaking a hornets nest-

As I look back at some of the comments I realize that many are generalizations about opinions of ARMA members. It is hard to argue with these, so guys, you are welcome to your own opinions. You should not be surprised by some of the responses though since you are on the Organization's Forum.

[Jako Valis]

Shane,

Yes, you're right, these hand cutting techniques are hard to do full-speed and with control, still clearly hitting the target. Hard, but not at all impossible.

Steel gauntlets are a slight compromise if you're thinking of doing totally unarmored swordplay. Personally though, I think wearing gauntlets is much smaller compromise than using wasters or padded swords. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

I often practice with steel gauntlets just to get used to them. After a couple of minutes, I don't even remember they're there. If you have good gauntlets you can easily play piano with them. (Given that you can play the piano in the first place. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />)

- Jako

[Jako Valis]

Dear Bill,

I apologize if I gave the impression that I think ARMA sparring includes conditioning by getting hit by swords. That was not my point. Honestly, I put the last bit there just because I wanted to emphasize that bruises and pain is not necessary in sparring.

I generally agree with what Joachim said, I'm all for fighting full-speed. I'll clarify my opinion in my reply to him after this post.

Instead of just lightly tapping where it breeds false security

Controlling your cut doesn't mean you'd have to pull your cuts. I hate sniping and tapping hits. I hope you didn't get the idea I advocated tapping hits!

That being said what you will run across in the majority of ARMA is 14th to 18th century fighting arts mostly long sword, and I have noticed in several posts that you keep saying that you are not familiar with German Masters of this time.

Did I say something like that? I don't remember so. But to make it clear I may know something about Fiore's longsword, and a bit less about german stuff. If I practice different tradition of the same weapon, I believe I qualify to discuss the use of the weapon in different contexts.

- Jako

[Jako Valis]

Dear Joachim,

I did not say they were the same thing. I said we do both.

I didn't say you did. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

forcefully hitting each other

Making your attack with 100% killing potential, and the option to drive through your opponents defences doesn't mean that you'd have to manifest all that potential to your poor sparring frien when the attack comes to the point where you actually hit your friend in the head.

If I sparred you, I'd be happy if you'd make me learn the weaknesses in my technique by putting pressure on me with your attacks.

I wouldn't be happy, if you caught me off-guard and forcefully hit my head. You propably get my point, and I believe we are in agreement here.

To lightly "tap" your target in what is percieved as a all-out sparring situation would only serve to give him/her an unrealistic opportunity to counter your attack.

Indeed, I'm not suggesting the use of tap-hits. You can make a fast, controlled sword cut with proper follow-through without disabling your opponent. The same action still has the disabling potential behind it, should you for some reason decide to manifest it on your poor sparring partner. Which of course we don't do. But training that way teaches you to make actions in a realistic way, and making light contact is just a matter of decision.

Our sparring is "simulated combat" and as such we have to do it the way we do it.

I surely believe you could also do it differently. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have neither done, nor stated, such a thing. Where did you get that from?

I apologize if you got the impression that I ment you would really do this kind of thing. It was ment just as a general "criticism" toward people who boast with their bruises from longsword sparring. (I remember seeing some websites with bruise-galleries etc. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

The thing is, that if you're doing unarmed fighting, or even stick fighting, there is much more point in getting used to bruises and stuff.

- Jako

[Jako Valis]

Jeanry,

Lol! I thought Joachim made this quite clear. NOBODY is trying to condition themselves to take hits. That is absurd. The point is to condition yourself to MAKE HITS. Or more accurately, to strike and thrust and cut effectively.

In some areas, I'd say it may be worth the time spent to condition yourself to take hits. Not against sword cuts, though, as we both agree. You propably understood that I simply criticized the need for hurt and bruises and bleeding, and the idea of conditioning yourself to take cuts was just sarcasm. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

And getting bruised up doesn't really condition you to make hits. The broken you get the harder it gets to make hits. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Our point is that if you dont do full-speed full-contact as at least a significant component of your training, you will NEVER LEARN how to actually fight.

Yeah, agreed. That's why I do sparring. I just prefer steel blunts over other weapons because they are more realistic. I think the compromises are less when using a few pads and steel gauntlets on my body, than if I'd use soft swords with a t-shirt.

And the thing is, if I'm able to do all the stuff with some gear on, it just gets easier to do it without the gear. And remember, that people also back in the day wore gloves, doublets and other stuff, because they wanted to protect themseves.

- Jako

[David Craig]

Well, since there are a ton of posts on this thread, I'll add another. Personally I don't think that whether or not padded weapons are used is a particularly important reason to select one wma group over another. In my opinion, ARMA offers the following things that might make it a good choice, depending on an individual's needs:

1. Size. It is a large established organization with study groups all over the place. Therefore there is more likely to be an ARMA group near you, or near where you might be moving to in the future.

2. Variety of instruction/study. Many groups have a fixed curriculum based on specific historical manuals or manuals from a particular tradition. There's nothing wrong with that, but if for example you wish to learn longsword in the German tradition, you might not want to join a group that bases its entire course of study on Fiore &amp; the Italian tradition -- as many do.

3. Flexibility. The study group approach of ARMA differs from the school/instructor method of some other groups. Again, neither is inherently superior. But if you prefer learning in a more informal setting, rather than following a set course of training under an instructor, ARMA may be the way to go.

In my view anyone considering ARMA should check out the study groups nearby and then evaluate whether or not they wish to join. Visiting a study group will tell you a lot more about whether or not that group is a good match for you than anything anyone can tell you on this forum.

David

[Joachim Nilsson]

Jako wrote:

Making your attack with 100% killing potential, and the option to drive through your opponents defences doesn't mean that you'd have to manifest all that potential to your poor sparring frien when the attack comes to the point where you actually hit your friend in the head.

If I sparred you, I'd be happy if you'd make me learn the weaknesses in my technique by putting pressure on me with your attacks.

I wouldn't be happy, if you caught me off-guard and forcefully hit my head. You propably get my point, and I believe we are in agreement here.

Well, it seems like we are of different opinions on that particular subject...

(I know the rest of the forumites are probably holding their breaths right about now, "waiting for Joachim to issue a sparring challenge". Which will not happen. Just discussing quietly here. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

We do have helmets and padded swords you know. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Before I enter sparring with anyone who trains with or visits our group, I make sure they are aware of what they are getting themselves into. And yes, it can hurt when you get hit depending on where the hit lands, but so does a good roundhouse to the thigh or thrust kick to the belly in kickboxing. I yet to encounter anyone who have avoided sparring due to the nature of it. The fact that it feels to get hit: It comes with the territory. IMHO. I do not feel pity for, or view anyone as "poor", who enters into padded weapon sparring. Nor does the people I train with.

But like I said, it's all just a difference of opinion. And perhaps mindset. Don't knock it until you've tried it though.

Indeed, I'm not suggesting the use of tap-hits. You can make a fast, controlled sword cut with proper follow-through without disabling your opponent. The same action still has the disabling potential behind it, should you for some reason decide to manifest it on your poor sparring partner. Which of course we don't do. But training that way teaches you to make actions in a realistic way, and making light contact is just a matter of decision.

I surely believe you could also do it differently.

Light, or lighter, contact is used within ARMA too. But we employ that when we train with our other tools: wasters and blunts. We do do sparring, or rather: "free-play" with those tools too. Just because we advocate the use of padded weapons it doesn't automatically mean that we exclude the rest of the possible tools. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> The are, for the benefit of gaining the broadest insights possible, all equally nessecary to employ.

I apologize if you got the impression that I ment you would really do this kind of thing. It was ment just as a general "criticism" toward people who boast with their bruises from longsword sparring. (I remember seeing some websites with bruise-galleries etc. )

Hmm, the last sentence reminds me of some (Swedish) people I know of... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Let me assure you: It's just their sense of humour.

As for the general boasting: It may exist out there, but whenever it's been brought up in here, and in this discussion in particular, it has not been brought up under the pretence of boasting. I'm quite certain it's been refered to more to illustrate that even padded weapons can instill a sense of urgency and "this is for real" in your opponant (or sparring partner if you will).

Regards,
Joachim

[Jako Valis]

Hi Joachim,

I'm quite certain it's been refered to more to illustrate that even padded weapons can instill a sense of urgency and "this is for real" in your opponant (or sparring partner if you will).

That's why I like sparring with steel... you don't have to smack the [censored] out of your partner to get the feeling of "this is for real".

And this coin also has two sides; on the other hand I can deliver a lethal blow even with a blunt sword, on the other hand, during free-fencing I sometimes may get a bit worried that I hit my opponent too hard - often they just nod "it's ok, it didn't feel that hard". It's quite hard to always have proper support in your edge when doing it in a more "chaotic" environment like free-fencing, even if you did try it.

But again, if you properly undesrstood what I tried to say, I don't understand what you really get out of hitting hard your opponents, if you see they'we failed their defences? Ok, one may get satisfaction out of it, but personally I feel it's much more satisfying to draw my blade across one's mask lightly, and see in their eyes the feeling of "[censored], that cut just could've taken my head with it". And that way they live to train with you longer...

Again, the nature of the game is different in kickboxing, etc, as I stated in an earlier post. But even in unarmed fighting, if you set up a nice neck crank, you may go through the motion and make it clear to the opponent that "this was it", but you don't take it to actually breaking their necks.

Now, with swords, a cut to your head may often be as fatal as a neck cranck.. therefore no need to take it further.

With basic punches and kicks you have to make effect with them, as they change the fight rather than end it. With swords it is the time of parries and avoids where you put the pressure on, where you can crush through you opponents weak position etc. You see my point?

Perhaps my sarcastic statement about conditioning for cuts was in place after all... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

And if we one day end up training together, I'm not looking forward to proving my point by fighting.. that'd be silly also! I'd rather expect sharing of experience and knowledge. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yours,
Jako

[Joachim Nilsson]

Well, it seems that this is going nowhere (other than back and forth). My experience tells me the more things just go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, the more ugly the discussion can get. My personal preference tells me that, as with all things physical, it can be only be discussed to a certain degree. And I think we've reached that point now. You seem pretty set in your beliefs. As I am in mine. So we'll just leave it at that.

However:

And if we one day end up training together, I'm not looking forward to proving my point by fighting.. that'd be silly also! I'd rather expect sharing of experience and knowledge. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Since I know what thread you have been reading, and since I know how my intentions have been percieved in the past by others, I think it needs to be said for good and all: This is, after all, a martial art. As such it's meant to be done, not talked about. There is only so much discussion that can be done on a certain subject, technique or whatever. Without the physical element nothing can be interpreted, resurrected or proven either way. You certainly don't see UFC, Pride or K1-guys sitting around talking each other into submission or what have you. IMHO, a thorough thrashing in sparring is sharing of knowledge and experience. If JC beat the living snot out of me in sparring, I'd take it as one of the highest degrees of enlightment because it could be analyzed and tell me what I was doing wrong. But feel free to call me silly or whatever you like.

And please note: I'm only speaking on behalf of myself here. There might be scores of ARMA members out there who disagree with me and think I'm nothing but a hot head that's just cruising for a bruising. But that's fine too. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regards,
Joachim

[Jako Valis]

Hi again,

You seem pretty set in your beliefs. As I am in mine. So we'll just leave it at that.

Then, could you please tell me what exactly is the difference between our "beliefs", other than that I don't like padded weapons?

As such it's meant to be done, not talked about.

You misread me totally! I didn't mean I'd like to discuss things over doing them. But I don't think sparring is the only important aspect of a martial art. Many things can be "discussed" physically better by demonstration and drilling than sparring.

IMHO, a thorough thrashing in sparring is sharing of knowledge and experience.

Sort of, but the question I might ask after someone totally overwhelmed me in sparring is: "how did you do that?", and if he/she only can do it, and can't explain it, it's not going to be that enlightening. And I'm capable of understanding techniques and solid principles also through presentations other than sparring. In the end, a martial artist with good knowledge in theory is can be able to teach you a lot, even if you could take him/her to parts in sparring.

If JC beat the living snot out of me in sparring, I'd take it as one of the highest degrees of enlightment because it could be analyzed and tell me what I was doing wrong. But feel free to call me silly or whatever you like.

I call you silly. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> But seriously, I'd expect someone with his sparring experience and years over me in training to be able to beat me in a fight, thus no need for proving that point. But, to a degree, I agree with you that sparring is a good way of getting rid of unrealistic view of your own abilities. On the other hand, it can also give you them.

Free-fencing can be used as a training tool to hone your technique, your sense of timing and distance. You can restrict yourself to certain techniques or try out stuff you already manage to pull off nicely in drills... all this can be done without adding all of the factors of real fight into the drill simultaneously.

But I agree that in the process of training for a swordsman, at some point, whether it be early or later in the process, competition, fear, mental pressure and the desire to win, the desire to survive and even the desire to kill must come a part.

It just doesn't have to be there all the time in sparring, and the real skill for a teacher is to build this up in a constructive manner, without risking too much... One day when I get better I'll "spar" with sharp steel. There will be lot's of fear involved in that, altough the aim will not be in the other person getting seriously injured.

- Jako

[Joachim Nilsson]

Then, could you please tell me what exactly is the difference between our "beliefs", other than that I don't like padded weapons?

Well that and that we seem to differ a little on standpoints when it comes to sparring. I like to give my opponant a good whack, you don't.

You misread me totally! I didn't mean I'd like to discuss things over doing them. But I don't think sparring is the only important aspect of a martial art. Many things can be "discussed" physically better by demonstration and drilling than sparring.

Nor do I. We don't train to spar. We spar for the sake of training. Discussions are fine and do have their merits, that I don't deny, but if it gets to the point where discussion in the sole means of getting your point across then everything becomes moot. That was the point I was trying to make. I'm vary of the "kids playing with their GI Joes in the sandbox syndrome", that's all.

Sort of, but the question I might ask after someone totally overwhelmed me in sparring is: "how did you do that?", and if he/she only can do it, and can't explain it, it's not going to be that enlightening.

It was assumed that whoever beats who is able to explain the reasons for it too. Videotaping sparring sessions is a good tool for analyze.

And I'm capable of understanding techniques and solid principles also through presentations other than sparring. In the end, a martial artist with good knowledge in theory is can be able to teach you a lot, even if you could take him/her to parts in sparring.

Of course. Just because I am advocating sparring as a tool for learning, it does not mean that I don't like/use/utilize/understand other methods too.

Free-fencing can be used as a training tool to hone your technique, your sense of timing and distance. You can restrict yourself to certain techniques or try out stuff you already manage to pull off nicely in drills... all this can be done without adding all of the factors of real fight into the drill simultaneously.

Which is exactly why we do full speed, full intent sparring as well as more controlled, somewhat calmer free-play.

But I agree that in the process of training for a swordsman, at some point, whether it be early or later in the process, competition, fear, mental pressure and the desire to win, the desire to survive and even the desire to kill must come a part.

It just doesn't have to be there all the time in sparring, and the real skill for a teacher is to build this up in a constructive manner, without risking too much... One day when I get better I'll "spar" with sharp steel. There will be lot's of fear involved in that, altough the aim will not be in the other person getting seriously injured.

And just as I, when I teach, utilize four different tools, I also utilize different teaching-methods: Discussion, information, demonstration, drilling, technique-training, free-play, sparring, analyzation and discussion and theory.

Regards,
Joachim