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WMA FMA research

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:54 am

The following is a rebuttal by Tuhon Rafael on the Influence of the Spanish sword article on filipino martial arts:

The LANCE.
One of the reasons not much is made of the sword around Legaspi's time was that military effectiveness of the lance in massed formations and skirmishes were already well established, and the transition of projectile weaponry through the gun was already redefining warfare.
I noticed when there's an inquiry for arms, the Spanish officers asked for guns, ammunition, lances (or long range staff weapons) , shields first with nary a note on acquiring more swords.
Now today, as swordsmen, much of what many western swords scholars learn from are old manuals or books of the SWORD.
The difference is that military experts did not write manuals on how to use the lance nor fighting with the lance in the battlefield even if the soldiers used and wrote about it's use on the field often.
In addition, the old sword experts of that time were concentrating on personal forms of combat and and gave the lance and staff weapons in mass formation little 'airtime'. There's lots of romance to the sword. Much is made on duels or one on one fights. Many diagrams and reflection on the gentlemanly approach to battle. Someone mentioned armed cavalry of that time, compare the amount of written material on military armed cavalry technique to those of single sword exchange. Not historical accounts but the technique.
Those who deal with the western sword can look at masters like Agrippa who places little thought on the matter. There's a few more manuals dealing with the staff but nonetheless, a miniscule of material compared to what they wrote and illustrated on the staff or lance.
However, even when these sources mention the weapon, they describe how the staff can be wielded against a swordsman- how the difference in distance truly handicaps the shorter range weapon. If you add that to military tactical use - it makes the lance an even greater threat to opponents.
Now check your FMAs techniques... how many double weapon movements appear to be closing on something that is farther in reach... triple parrying as you close. Rare in real sword fights. Almost an overcompensation right?
See how the sinawali patterns greatly add to closing on a man with a staff. Sure it makes sense in short range work as well, but note how the double tap, replacement tap, and triple tap etc. just blends itself well against a long range weapon. You close as you flow into an organzied predetermined set of attacks. You are blocking and attacking.
In reality, you're trying to cover 4 steps to their one or two. Your primary threat is at the tip either in front as you enter or the reverse when held in the Marozzo method. If the long range person has great footwork, you're in deep trouble, especially if one end of that staff is bladed or hooked.
As per how footwork and speed of the native warrior would just run past a lance - consider that a lion or tiger is best killed with a long range weapon.
--Rafael--

Guest

Re: WMA FMA research

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:57 am

His statements continued, I am pasting these posts not to belittle Spanish accomplishments but rather to spark serious research:

How the Spanish Cut and Thrust Methods as they pertain to Filipino History and their Conquest.

Answer is they don't.
The Legaspi expedition was one of the samples which the HACA essay brought up as a sample of Spanish strength in their cut and thrust methods. How confident the Spaniards were in their use of their arms- there¹s even this implied mention that the Filipino historians who glossed over Legaspi¹s success in Manila did so because they did not want to mention how formidable the Spanish sword skills were.

Far from the case. There¹s never ever any mention of Legaspi¹s men being such great swordsmen because ALL of them had arquebuses on them. The HACA essay suggest otherwise mentioning details on arquebuses etc. However, the Instruction to Miguel Lopez de Legaspi from the Royal Audencia of New Spain regarding his Philippine expedition contradicts this view.

The document from The Legaspi expedition contained thus,
"The THREE HUNDRED arquebuses that are being provided in this expedition from his majesty¹s stores, you shall distribute among the soldiers who will need and who do not have them. These soldiers will be few in number, because almost ALL of them have theirs."

Emphasis is mine. Since this maybe the first time some tribes ever come across Spanish soldiers, you must note that the Spaniards are already well armed with guns. In the document there is mention of carrying shields, but the main concern were the upkeep of their guns and to make sure Legaspi reminded his men that keeping their guns clean was of prime importance.

There¹s no mention of how Legaspi should take the islands by the sword. There is however, page after page on how to barter with the natives, how to ingrain themselves in their society, how not to come across them as enemies but as friends. How to place Fray Andre¹s de Urdaneta of the Order of St. Augustine into the picture so that the church can be take a huge part of the Conquesta. There¹s talk of bribery with goods. There¹s stern warnings on how Legaspi should secure his ships at night so that they do not get killed in the night, how they must carry their arms and arquebuses on them at all times. How never to [censored] with the natives or they fall victim to them. How to barter using his lesser men as hostage and never coming on shore himself but use a lesser officer. The crown wanted Legaspi to come across as noble as the natives considered themselves to be. There¹s mention of the natives being savages, but I was surprised to read that the crown respected the native¹s wisdom and intellect.

There are strict orders not to bring any servants or superflous attendants- the expedition needed all 300 ­350 Spanish soldiers and sailors on hand. Only a dozen Negro Œservants¹ were allowed to come along. There¹s many sections on how to investigate and scout without crossing the native¹s ire. Hardly, the talk of the conquering Legaspi with sword in hand. In fact, there¹s only a couple of instances where talk about defending from pirates is noted. Just as many on how they are to take care of their dead, as the crown expected casualties, even instructing Legaspi to make sure his command is secure if he is felled.
Clearly, indications that Spain was concerned about pacification and conquest through these methods and not by the sword.

The actual expedition numbered 150 seamen, and 250 soldiers. All were well armed with arquebuses.
Legaspi¹s letters to Spain mention of how the natives are easily subdued when met with kindness and religion. He states that destruction does not get much welcome. He also talks about the Moros as being so warlike that they are not part of this description.

He states that the natives will fight at any provocation, and they fight one another!
Here¹s another comment by Legaspi, " It seemed to them (Moros) that the Spaniards were very few and could be easily slain, even if only with CLUBS"

Stick fighting anyone?

On volleys:
Some Western historians say the arquebus took too long to load, that volleys were not thought much of. It would seem that a culture that utilized archery and lances would be able to make an easy transition.
Legaspi was very familiar with the word 'volley' as he used it often in his descriptions of firing their arquebuses.
There is no mention of using swords in these battles- lots of gunfire and cannon. There is even a exchange of gunfire from the Moros at times when they ran across those with lantakas.

On the numbers of Filipino indios with the Spaniards:

Captain Juan de Salzedo and Captain Lorenzo Chacon "with more than 130 soldiers and more than 800 Indios rowed the boast in which they went" Francisco de Ortega to the Viceroy of Spain.

Now this is not to say that the Filipinos always won the battle, one thing that comes clear is that the Filipinos would retreat at the signal of any weakening in the ranks or would easily sway to the other side if they thought it was of advantage to them. However, there is never any mention of Spanish soldiers trouncing any tribes with sword alone. There¹s hundreds of mentions of the use of the arquebusŠ maybe it took a while to load but these Spaniards lived and died by them. They must be faster than the people today or had tactical ways of shooting.
So the myth of Spanish soldiers coming to shore with only their swords in hand is now laid to rest.
--Rafael--

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Re: WMA FMA research

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:00 pm

Continued:

By 1520¹s the arquebus¹s success versus cavalry was already attracting attention. The expense of the large targets falling before the gunfire was noted by Blaise de Monluc when he described how early in his career he learned that a small group of arquebusiers could stop a cavalry charge.
I¹d like to point out that this was during a time when many warriors of Spain and other European armies warriors trained in the old ways of sword and shield were not exactly welcome to this new mode of combat. Chevalier Bayard considered it, "devilish" to shoot a knight from a distance using an iron tube, lead slugs and powder. Chevalier made it a point to hang a prisoner on the spot who found carrying a firearm. (The Story of Weapons and Tactics- Wittingham)

FORMATION

Initial formations of pike and arquebus phalanx involved the arquebusiers at the corners of the square. TEST OF WILL is evident in the unbroken formation as it evolved in the Spanish Tercios formations at Rocroi. Pike formations were drilled to support the volley of the Arquebusiers. One such formation involved the pikemen allowing a yard or so of room between themselves to enable arquebusiers to move within the formation.

Magellan¹s death illustrates that the pike and shot men could hold back the natives long enough to sustain the battle at long range for nearly an hour. Once the natives closed, the sheer numbers overwhelmed the pikemen so quickly that Magellan could not even deploy his sword in time. The mode of combat was reliant on static defense and the weakness was that once broken, the larger number of closing enemy (of which the defense was specifically designed for ) would collapse the formation and force retreat or eventually kill the men in the broken modified phalanx. Magellan ordered his men to retreat as did other Spanish officers in several engagements years later in Mindanao.

The same weakness was apparent when Spanish officers would follow the retreating natives and break the arquebus/pike phalanx in attempts to rout the natives. Often they fell prey to the natives¹ own mode of ambush. Sheer dominance of native forces in the Philippines would already have swayed the tide if they were able to close the pike and gun formations. These Spanish officers were still fighting as they had trained in the older methods of combat. A significant transition of how battle was fought and how officers were trained happened during this time period. Other officers trained or aware of the weaknesses of the phalanx stayed and held the formation. They lived or died by the confidence or nerves in their formations or fortifications

"This was not only because the pikemen was central to battlefield tactics but also because the solidarity as a social group was critical to their very ability to operate in battle. Pikes had to withstand the efforts to break their ranksŠ in the ability to remain coherent and effective under the strains of battle was a function of the morale, training and discipline of the pikemen." Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe, Hall Spanish Tercios had to create an artificial comradeship due to the structure of their army, whether by religion or other means.

My own POV is that if the Spaniards resorted to the sword it was an admittance of a failure of the phalanx as it was used in their day. For a pikeman to abandon his long weapon, it would involve his fellow pikemen ( drilled to attack in unison) not able to support his fellow soldier. A well drilled group of pikemen and arquebusiers could take on or repel a cavalry charge in open field, or a charge of enemy when covered in natural fortifications and their own static defense. Resorting to HTH combat of the sword and buckler variety would only be tactically viable if the enemy numbers were equal or less. Too much relied in maintaining their number in a faraway land. Hard fought lessons learned decades past revealed the weakness of engaging a superior force rushing towards you when the ability to adapt and engage the battle on a separate level can supply a victory. Their own records displayed that using an advancing force of native allies wielding HTH weapons to rout or close signalled many positive outcomes. Magellan would have done well to have the native allies close in once Lapu Lapu and his men began to converge to the range of HTH. Magellan was however, in the midst of how warfare was evolving. Legaspi and Spanish troops that followed had more hindsight to draw from.

An Artillery Sub branch began to enlarge within the Spanish military. Spain¹s Prince Phillip II created a system of justice under the council of war just for the artillery. Gunners, Metal Founders, Superintendents of Artillery came into being.

By 1537, a mathematical treatise on calculating the trajectory of shot was already in existence. By 1586, Collado provided a practical manual for the artilleryman. By the 1620¹s HTH combat skills in military education gave way to the study of ballistics, siege tactics, formation studies, leadership and the use of campaign mapping. By 1590¹s the continuous shots (volley fire) was already a documented drill for arquebusiers. One such drill involved six ranks , as one rank fired it retreated to the rear as the second rank took it¹s place and so on.

The Introduction letter to Legaspi commented on the importance of arquebus drill and practice, as many in Europe were learning- repetition and familiarity bred confidence in this new eapon and form of combat Swiss and Spanish pikemen had their own drills years prior to the emergence of the 1607 Jacob de Gheyn Dutch drill manual for pikemen and arquebusiers (Wapenhandelinghe van Roers). This drill became a standard practice.

Military drill and formations during the 16th century used manuals such as the revised Vegetius¹ De Re Militari in 1585, Lipsius¹ 1595 De Militia Romana, Cruso¹s Instructions, Bingham¹s Tactics of Aelian and Hexham¹s Principles of the art of Militare.

The Spanish Œhollow rectangle¹ proved to be a succesful tactic vs. the French in 1643. Eventually the pike role diminished into a support role to the arquebusier. By 1650 even Pikemen numbers as stated earlier declined and by 1705 eventually faded away. By 1647, Puysegur¹s plug bayonet displayed the use of the gun as a hybrid pike. The evolution into the ring bayonet made the pike obsolete. The kris in the hands of a suicidal Moro relied mostly on sheer fanaticism in the face of overwhelming firepower. Once the Colt¹s stopping power was adjusted to address the charging Moro, this mode of attack and way of combat spoke more on the tenacity of the fighters rather than their practicality.

"It is impossible to learn the right use of weapons without at the same time learning tactics." The Evolution of Weapons and Warfare, Col. Dupuy.

"On the battlefield, Close ­Quarter fighting, the prime objective of the Medieval Knight gradually gave way to longer range musketry duels. In 1598, one English writer commented that it is rarely seen in our days that men come often to blows as in the old times they did." Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe, Hall.

As the gun evolved further, eventually these formations of tightly grouped soldiers advancing methodically upon the unorganized enemy suffered massive losses in infantry hundreds of years later. Volley fire weakness introduced the line formation, abandoning the psychological reassurance of a pike phalanx formation. Tightly lined formation met another tightly formed formation with both sides possessing faster loading, more powerful guns and capable of longer ranges of fire. We¹ve all seen films or reenactments of troops falling in a hail of gunfire while they steadily advanced.

Spain¹s Prince Philip II knew the importance of modern warfare, but the consequences of maintaining an effort of subjugation disproportionate to the empire¹s resources, overwhelmed him, his countrymen and his place in history. It led Spain to worse actions. One biographer states," History has shown itself severe towards this Prince" Under his rule Spain alienated the nations in which the following centuries were to shape and inspire public opinion such as Holland, England and France. It¹s subjugation of the Americas, colonization of the Philippines and battles with future super powers to come. Philip was caught between the past and the future and he eventually personified the Spanish Empire¹s greatest triumphs, weakness and demise.
Recommended sources:
The Story of Weapons and Tactics- Wittingham
Evolution of Weapons and Warfare, Col. Dupuy
Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe, Hall
War and Society in Early Modern Europe 1495- 1715, Tallett
Firepower- Hughes
Phillip II- The First Modern King, Mariejol

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Mike Cartier
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Re: WMA FMA research

Postby Mike Cartier » Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:48 pm

ok heres my take on this
This subject was discussed at length on the dogbrothers.com forum, with many learned people from both sides, including Tuhon Rafael, putting forth great info, .
Its a long and lengthy discussion too, in the end i think there is no definitive information either way, its just too obscure on exactly how it all happened.
I have no doubt that proper miltary tactics were the order of the day, swords were not at the forefront, either way its completely irrelevant to me.

only these facts remain to me for consideration
is FMA weaponry training effective ?
Is WMA weaponry training effective?
The answer to both is a resounding yes.
So really it matters not to me who won what for what reason back then, i think perhaps this is best left to archeaologists and historians and better not debated amongst martial artists.

There seems to be an undercurrent on both sides of this debate, a need to legitimize ones art through history. I think this has already been done by both sides by everyones ancestors with no need for us to do so in this day and age.
The warfare was particularly inconclusive on both sides it seems
The Filipinos didn't fully eject the Spanish and the Spanish didn't win by force alone. So we will never be able to determine which martial artform was superior.

I am certain that the participants on both sides were fine soldiers and warriors, there is nothing to be gained finally deciding who really won and how. In the end the effectiveness of an artform is determined by its application and training methodology not by its history.
Its a fine discussion as long as we all stay sensible about it, but when we let it go too far it can become counterproductive, i hope we can keep this discussion in the realm of civility and professionalism

I personally will forever straddle the fence of FMA and WMA arts because I love them both

Mike
ARMA-SFL
Mike Cartier
Meyer Frei Fechter
www.freifechter.com

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Jared L. Cass
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Re: WMA FMA research

Postby Jared L. Cass » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:43 pm

I agree whole-heartily, Mike! Martial arts are martial are martial arts! What system one trains in is a personal matter . To each his own. Everyone has their own interests. My interests (and I'm sure for many of you) just happen to be Eastern and Western MA. There are universal martial truths in both schools of thought. I personally think that's all that really matters. It's just about finding, in hopefully an unpolitical way, which martial truths best suit the individual. Mike, great quote by the way, "I personally will forever straddle the fence of FMA and WMA arts, because I love them both." Words to live by.

Jared L Cass, Wisconsin

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Re: WMA FMA research

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:00 pm

My ancestors come from both lines so my intent on bringing up the matter here does not come from wanting assert any cultural superiority of one or the other. I was only hoping to perhaps spark some experimentation on sword vs pike in mass or even individual combat and to put forth Tuhon Rafael's theory that the Spanish did indeed influence FMA but it was the pike that did it.

Again my intent was not debate but experimentation. So get out there and try it out.

I tried some of the techniques I learned in Clements books at the Gathering and tried some of the kicking techniques (talked about in this forum's unarmed section) as well. Both served me well.

So cross train cross pollenate and have fun.

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John_Clements
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Re: WMA FMA research

Postby John_Clements » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:03 pm

Yeah, good reply, Mike. The essay on our site refers only to suggestions and claims there was significant Spanish influence on FMA in the 16th century, an assertion I still have found little proof for. I do however have evidence that Filipino youths studied fencing in European military academies in the 18th and 19th centuries, so maybe that is where some of the supposed similarities between modern FMA teachings and later Western fencing come about.

The guy's disjointed posts here, while welcome, seem to be more concerned with how the Spanish colonized (an issue of no real interest to ARMA).

JC
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Mike Cartier
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Re: WMA FMA research

Postby Mike Cartier » Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:03 pm

Agreed Carlo
cross training is good for the soul

i am trying to get my hands on some anangankil longstick drills from Thailand, i really love the South East Asian fighting drills
Mike Cartier

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steve hick
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Re: WMA FMA research

Postby steve hick » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:56 am

We're finding more about stick arts of Spain, the Canaries and former Spanish colonies, that seem to offer some indirect evidence that perhaps FMA in some way were derived from Spanish influences. The latest is garrote larenese from Venezuela, it is very similar to FMA and a known but recently lost art from the Canaries. There's been some discussion of this on the bata forum, apparently they are in contact with someone who studies this. There are two pbulished works on garrote larenese (in Spanish) in the Library of Congress


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