Zornhau;The least masterful of Ringecks Meisterhau

[Shane Smith]

The Zornhau strikes me as a bit of an enigma. Ringeck calls it out as a Master Cut, yet while it comes in for more general use than the other four, it breaks none of the four wards and indeed, any of the other four cuts can readily defeat it when struck in opposition. Zorn breaks an opponents active cut's with great utility as do the other four Meisterhau, yet krumphau, shietelhau, shielhau and Zwerchhau all break Zorn AND a respective guard as enumerated by Master Ringeck in his commentaries.The Zornhau gets much use in attack and defense, yet it seems to me that it is just a shade less "Masterful" than it's siblings which also serve as displacements.

How do you suppose that Ringeck came to include it as a Mastercut? Other than the fact that it both covers and attacks along two of the eight lines(As do the other Meisterhau as seen from the cutters POV save for the krumphau in my opinion), I see no reason for it's inclusion. It just seems almost too intuitive, too "easy", to have such a grand title applied to the relative simplicity that is the Zornhau. Thoughts? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

My initial impression is that it's included because there's really two zornhau's, based on use more than execution. There's the peasant's simple strike clean through, and there's the master's strike that leads to a bind. Both might be used by the master, of course.

Jake

[Shane Smith]

Good thoughts Jake. I would say that beyond it's utility to achieve a bind as described in Ringeck, it seems to me that a zornhau's greatest use is fighting indes as a simultaneous set aside and counter cut. That seems to me it's most masterful application. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Derek Gulas]

Hello,

Even though the Zornhau doesn't seem to have all the finesse of the other Meisterhauen, I still believe that there are good reasons for its inclusion. First of all, its so prolific. I don't think I've every had a sparring match where I haven't used it. Since it's so intuitive and simple, a I believe that a good sword fighter would have to know everyway in and out of it. Also, if you're supposed to remain the the Vor rather than Nach, couldn't it be said that this cut is good at seizing the initiative with a powerful blow before your opponent has time to react?

[JeanryChandler]

a zornhau's greatest use is fighting indes as a simultaneous set aside and counter cut.

I agree, it's also really two different cuts whether used as an opening attack or as a counter "in des"

Jeanry

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shane

I see no reason for it's inclusion. It just seems almost too intuitive, too "easy", to have such a grand title applied to the relative simplicity that is the Zornhau. Thoughts?

I was just telling someone this the other day.

It is easy to counter, now if you step offline and throw this unexpetedly it is harder to counter.

The only reason i see is that with a good traversing step it does protect and hit at the same time.

Jeff

[M Wallgren]

I´m with Jeff and Jake here.

And it seems it so easy to do, but as we all know, In sparring or real fight the speed and moving distances make it much harder to apply as a counter-attack. The pricipal of KISS. But how many have seen it work for a novice swordfighter in ther first sparring? IMO it takes lots of practise and drilling and sparring before this is effectiv.

I think we also should make a difference between Oberhau and Zornhau.
Oberhau is what the peasant do (and the master if he want to)
Zornhau is to do it as a counterattack.

But that´s only me...

Martin

[John_Clements]

Recall much earlier that, while Liechtenauer did not include it as one of his 4 Hidden Strikes, used against gaurds, he did include it as a Mastercut used to counter-strike.

JC

[Jake_Norwood]

Indeed.

We're confusing the "Vier Versetzen" with the "Vorbogen Hauen/Meisterhauen." There's an 80% overlap there, but they aren't the same thing.

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Hey Guy's

I guess i should have looked closer at some material i actualy have a vague recollection of seeing something of that over lap, it was just something that made me go Hmmm, now to try and remember were i saw it.

Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

I think the others comments stated the reasons well. I would only add that perhaps Zorn was considered masterly because it would, as a well timed counterstrike, just utterly devastate the foe, and thus a fighter could master the fight decisively with it. That may be a little simple-minded, but it just strikes me that way (heh, heh a pun). <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

JH

[Randall Pleasant]

Is it not an assumion that the five strikes are called master cuts because of what they do? While discussing how the Zornhau, unlike the other four strikes, does not break a guard we have to remember that Liechtenauer only has four basic guards. Liechtenauer only says which strike is best at breaking a given guard, he does not say that one strike is more overall better than another or more artful. As best I can recall at the moment Liechtenauer did not call them master cuts. Might we not just as easily assume that the five strikes were later called master cuts becasue a swordmen must know well these five strikes in order to be considered a Master?

[Jake_Norwood]

Meyer called the Meisterhauwen. Liechtenauer called them the "5 hidden strikes."

Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

Yeah, I keep forgetting that distinction. I keep muddling those different designations too often. Thanks for the reminder. JH

[Jaron Bernstein]

I get the impression that to be a meistherhau, the same cut has to be useful in many situations from many angles. The Zornhau certainly fits that bill.