Schielhau: The most difficult of the meisterhau´s

[M Wallgren]

To continue on this exellent disciussion on meisterhau´s.

How is your interpetation on Schielhau?

Do you end in a pflug or in a Ochs? Is it a strike with the flat or how do you execute Schielhau?

Please comment! I have never been realy satisfied with the "high" Schielhau myself!

Cheers...

Martin

[JeffGentry]

Hey Martin

I don't execute Schielhau, lol, I have yet to figure out an effective way of do this Master cut in an actual force on force situation, I understand the principle.

I guess that is why it is a Master cut.

Jeff

[Matthew_Anderson]

I don't find the Schielhau all that difficult although it was mysterious until I was shown how to do it. I definately don't strike with the flat! I reach out from Vom Tag, rolling the sword so I strike with the short edge, usually against the flat of my opponent's blade. It's usually a downward, diagonal cut from the right. It works well as an attack against Plug, in which case you may end in a sort of Pflug yourself, or it can be done higher, against an oberhau, in which case you end in something more like Ochs. Depending on how the range works out you may strike your opponent as you move in, or you may displace his blade, bind, wind, thrust, etc. If coming from your right side, your target is his upper right opening. This is one of those strikes that's hard to visualize if you've never seen someone do it. I could show you how I do it in about five minutes, but it's really hard to explain. As for sparring, like all things, it's situational. Shielhau works best against someone who either waits in Pflug too long, wanting to displace or thrust you, or someone who comes after you with a big, powerful. committed oberhau. I've done it a few times in sparring, but the opportunity doesn't present itself that often, I guess my sparring partners are just too smart!

[Mike Cartier]

I love Schielhau andh ave used it in several ways.

Firstly when i say Schielhau i mean the one described by Meyer.

i do it in several ways.
The best way i have found is to use an element of Nachreisen or striking after. I will use the Meyer reverse triangle and from any of the high guards wind my blade down the center line (often ends up being diagonal) striking with my short edge trying to outreach over the opponents attack. I like this best because there is a nice element of voiding which provides me with lots of protection. This version invariably ends just like the image in Meyer, in an Ochs and will use the concept of overreaching to out range the opponents strike.

The other version i do is much more in line with the actual description, traversing forwards and sriking out in the same center line trajectory but this time going forwards. I fint this to be tricky as often the displacement will need to be quite exact.
i find Schielhau works best against the scheitelhau coming straight down so that the displacement is more assured. If the opponent srikes a Zornhau it can get tricky if you are going forwards so i will pull strike by pushing down on my hilt which will displace more stoutly and usually either hit thier head/face or set me up for a advantageous counter thrust.
This will end up in a Pflug like position.

I find that if i am going backwards i need not care so much if its a schietelhau or a zornhau coming but when attacking forwards i must care due to the angle of the zornhau so i in INDES will adjust the Shielhau if i see a Zornhau coming.

Meyer says to use short edge going right to left and use long edge going left to right. I confess i find the left to right version quite difficult compared to my right to left, this probably due to my lack of experience with it.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Guy's

Jake showed us last summer at our 1.0, I just can't deflect and hit in one motion against someone who is fighting back i can block there strike with it and then they move before i get my strike in.

If I remember right the Meiasterhau and hidden strike's protect and hit in the same motion, so in that context, I have been unable to execute this as a meisterhau.

Jeff

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jeff, I have seen you spar, granted not in a year or so...but I agree with Matt after you see it done you will have it. It's a play on the angles really.

You have to know when to throw it and then how to stay with it with some folow up footwork like the triangle step or a good slope- maybe I can give you a go on Friday- Later, Aaron

[John_Clements]

What I have been teachings is that to perform it diagonally with force you twist or turn as you pull down to a Pflug (as with a Zorn); but to do it vertically with force you snap from the hilt raised above the shoulders as if coming down from Ochs. Both of these deliver the Schielhau with speed and allow it to easily mesh fluidly in combination with all other cuts. And of course, as always you must step properly and extend the arms. Make sense? It's very easy to grasp when you see it.

JC

[Derek Gulas]

Hello JC,

Do you think it might be possible to post a video clip demonstrating the Schielhau sometime in the future? <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> It might be useful for everybody who's wondering if they've gotten it right.

[Jake_Norwood]

Well, it gets more complicated, really. The more we know, the less we know.

The Schiller as shown by Meyer "ends" in ochs (that's not true, really...it ends in a cut or a thrust if the cut misses, and continues into another attack, but I digress). Supposedly the ealier Schiller--say from Ringeck--lands in Pflug, but I have yet to make that work myself in all honesty. I don't like it, and I think we're missing something (and yes, I've seen it performed a million times...and I still think it sucks).

Then there's the sturzhauw, (following on the Swedish approach, which I'm fond of now), that throws the short edge downward on the right side and is otherwise identical to the schiller, but the arms are crossed instead of open. Agh!

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

I'm convinced that the "low schiller" doesn't suck, as it has worked for me vs. cuts (and how else could you break pflug with it?), but I do have yet to be convinced that that is what it really is, or that it isn't something of our own make. I haven't seen it plainly put forth in any artwork.
But I was wondering, just how to you guys execute the "high" shiller, as shown in most artwork? For me, it works flawlessly as a deflection, but, it isn't shown as a full deflection in most manuals, but a catching/stifleing action.
If you use it as a catching action (which is also very effective), such as a kronhau, what makes it different from the kronhau also described by Meyer?
Or, is it a tempo difference? Preempting the opponent's strike early enough to stifle, catch and cut, yet so fast there is no real kron guide/catch, as he strikes your blade ("cutting himself") once it is already on target. But, I'm not usually so quick.
Did that make sense or am I only displaying my ignorance of the subject?

Then there's the sturzhauw, (following on the Swedish approach, which I'm fond of now), that throws the short edge downward on the right side and is otherwise identical to the schiller, but the arms are crossed instead of open. Agh!

Once techniques begin to be defined by what side they're done on, rather than/in addition to application, that's when I think someone's getting too obsessive on their subject. It's probably safe to say that the sturzhau is separated more by application. I'd call a descending false edge cut/thrust on either side a sturzhau/falso fendente (a schiller if used as the master cut). But I suppose that depends on the master, or probably more accurately, how literally/obsessively you read into that master's writings.

[Jake_Norwood]

I have yet to get the "low schiller" to work against someone that was really fighting me except by chance. I will concede that some of this is due to my own clumsiness with the technique, yet I don't think that it does any a better job in dealing with pflug then anything else. I'd rather just krump. Thus, the low schiller, in comparision to alternatives, does seem to me to suck.

But the real issue you stated here:

...but I do have yet to be convinced that that is what it really is, or that it isn't something of our own make. I haven't seen it plainly put forth in any artwork.

Which are my thoughts exactly. The "high" schiller I have seen in art (and used in sparring and drill) and I find it works well as a stifle and as a deflection (Meyer, frex, uses it as a deflection several times in the body of his text). The Kronhauw is actually just Kron + Schiller, so it doesn't differentiate from the Kronhauw--it's part of it. Meyer also says that all his 16 cuts could be thought of as combinations of the four primary and the schiller (zornhauw, oberhauw/schedelhauw, underhauw, mittel oder uberzwerchauw + schielhauw). Though I think that's an oversimplification.

There are some other aspects of the schiller that get me. For example, its target is not the opponent's left side but the crown of his head or, more frequently, his *right* shoulder. That's a slightly different application than I've seen any of us doing consistently.

Now, on another string of thought, what difference in application to you attribute to the sturzhauw vs. scheilhauw?

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

I see where you're coming from, and I guess we're in agreement. I like a "low schiller" to break pflug, because as single weapons, it provides a check on the opponents weapon at the same time (hence mastercuts I suppose). But yeah, like I said, I'm not entirely convinced, but it has worked well for me in the past. It just clicked for me when it really did cause the opponent's blow to redirect and "strike himself" with my weapon. I'm not discounting luck though <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

There are some other aspects of the schiller that get me. For example, its target is not the opponent's left side but the crown of his head or, more frequently, his *right* shoulder. That's a slightly different application than I've seen any of us doing consistently.

I don't think the targeting is much of an issue, as long as your sword is interposed between his and yourself, and channels his force into himself via your blade. I generally aim for the right side of the neck or right ear. That placement can lead into excellent followup techniques, espcecially if this cut doesn't finish the fight, seeing as how it's not exactly a zornhau.

Now, on another string of thought, what difference in application to you attribute to the sturzhauw vs. scheilhauw?

Same motion, but I think of the sturzhau as an independent or standalone strike (such as plate 2 of the currently published Talhoffer manual), and the schielhau as that same strike done in conjunction with a deflection, or otherwise stopping the opponents strike simultaneously, as a master cut. Again, these definitions can always vary by master.

[philippewillaume]

Hello
The way I do the schiel is that is a zorh that ends ups to my left with extended arms.
I think that is the important bit with the scheil, because that is a very strong body structure and I believe that the objective if the scheil is to end up in that strong body structure.
The way I move, my Zornh tends to be relative close to vertical (may be 10-15 degrees) but even if it is more at 45 deg,
I just let my front hand rotate so that the long edge becomes the short but it (and I do it sometime by reversing the sword., it is the same).
If it is a high strike I have the tendency to reveres the sword only

So it start like a zornh, until I have to move my body to follow the strike with the foot on the side I am striking from. I am trying to use Dobringer &amp;#8220;turbo strike&amp;#8221; concept in all masterhaw.

It is not very easy to convey with words but that is the best I can do

[M Wallgren]

Once techniques begin to be defined by what side they're done on, rather than/in addition to application, that's when I think someone's getting too obsessive on their subject. It's probably safe to say that the sturzhau is separated more by application. I'd call a descending false edge cut/thrust on either side a sturzhau/falso fendente (a schiller if used as the master cut). But I suppose that depends on the master, or probably more accurately, how literally/obsessively you read into that master's writings.

I don´t get your meaning here! could you clerify for me please?

And don´t you mean Reverso fendente??

Cheers! Martin

[John_Clements]

Try using the vertical Schiller from Kron, and also use it as a round strike after coming around from a Zorn.