Jack London decribes "In des"?

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Doug Marnick
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Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby Doug Marnick » Sun May 22, 2005 12:19 pm

I teach The Call of the Wild every year to my 8th grade students. This time around I noticed the following passage with a martial sensibility. I figured I'd share it. Enjoy:
"Quickly as a husky dog could leap to defend from attack or to attack, [Buck] could leap twice as quickly. He saw the movement, or heard sound, and responded in less time than another dog required to compass the mere seeing or hearing. He perceived and determined and responded in the same instant. In point of fact the three actions of perceiving, determining, and responding were sequential; but so infinitesimal were the intervals of time between them that they appeared simultaneous. His muscles were surcharged with vitality, and snapped into play sharply, like steel springs." (p94)
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"The sword was a weapon of grace, nobility, and honor... which was little comfort as you slowly bled to death in a dung-filled moat."

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JeffGentry
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby JeffGentry » Sun May 22, 2005 3:46 pm

Hey Doug

IMHO, that is exactly what i think of as Indes.

Which is why I think it is so hard to learn to move Indes or why you can't teach how to move indes.

Jeff
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Aaron Pynenberg
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Sun May 22, 2005 6:14 pm

Jeff...you must let go your conscious self and act on instinct... sorry couldn't resist-later, Aaron
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Sun May 22, 2005 8:38 pm

Would that be with the light or dark side of Lichtenauer? <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

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JeffGentry
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby JeffGentry » Sun May 22, 2005 8:44 pm

Hey guy's

Well in alot of the extreme sport's I've done, alot of the time you have to move "Indes", It is nothing mystical, it is just knowing what you are doing and being totaly confident and totaly focused on what is happening.

Jeff
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Doug Marnick
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby Doug Marnick » Mon May 23, 2005 4:12 am

Jeff,
I would agree it can't be taught or learned. I think the reactions can become instinctual after hours and hours of training, i.e. muscle memory. I also feel the concept would be familiar to an athlete. I think of a batter "deciding" to swing or not against a 90mph fastball.
Although I agree it can't be taught, the concept could be explained. Therefore, the goal for a martial artist is to recognize success at moving Indes when it does naturally happen and hopefully it begins to occur more frequently. Be well.
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"The sword was a weapon of grace, nobility, and honor... which was little comfort as you slowly bled to death in a dung-filled moat."

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JeffGentry
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby JeffGentry » Mon May 23, 2005 9:29 am

Hey Doug

I would agree it can't be taught or learned.


As far as teaching i don't think it can be taught, it can be learned it is just very difficult like you said hour's and hour's of training.

I think the reactions can become instinctual after hours and hours of training,


Once you do something once it is no longer instinctual, It then become's a learned response, because if something doesn't work once we change(learn) what we did wrong and attempt to do it again the right way so we use our brain and remember how to do/not do it, and it become's a quicker response as we are able to recall it faster through repetition.

i.e. muscle memory


I am not a believer in "muscle memory" your brain remember's and transmit's it to the muscle, so if you are incapable of thinking and seeing what is happening your in trouble.

I think of a batter "deciding" to swing or not against a 90mph fastball.


That is pretty much it he "decide's" whether he will be able to hit the ball or not, it is a concious response to the stiminlus recieved by the brain in a split second.

the goal for a martial artist is to recognize success at moving Indes when it does naturally happen and hopefully it begins to occur more frequently.


We have to think about what is going on in our drills and sparring and start to concentrate on the timing and distance and the phyiscal movement.

Therer is nothing mystical about any of this it is as simple as good concentration in drill's and sparring to accustom ourselve's to as many situation's as we can and learn to learn how to respond in/to those and similar situation, that is what the principle's/technique's do is give us solution's for alot of situation's we have to learn to apply them correctly at the right time i.e. Indes.

Jeff
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby Rey Garcia » Mon May 23, 2005 10:26 am

Hey doug.
You wrote:He perceived and determined and responded in the same instant. In point of fact the three actions of perceiving, determining, and responding were sequential; but so infinitesimal were the intervals of time between them that they appeared simultaneous. His muscles were surcharged with vitality, and snapped into play sharply, like steel springs." (p94)

Kind of like the 4 am feedings for the new baby <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> .
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Randall Pleasant
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby Randall Pleasant » Mon May 23, 2005 11:21 am

Doug Marnick wrote:
I would agree it ["In des"] can't be taught or learned.

Grand-Master Johannes Liechtenauer and all of his known students believed that it could be taught and learned. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Ran Pleasant

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Stacy Clifford
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby Stacy Clifford » Mon May 23, 2005 11:46 am

I am not a believer in "muscle memory" your brain remember's and transmit's it to the muscle, so if you are incapable of thinking and seeing what is happening your in trouble.


"Nerve memory" would probably be a more accurate term. When you first learn how to perform an action, the nerves have to work out the pathways to get the muscles to do what the brain wants. The more you practice, the more efficient and streamlined the nerve pathways become and the quicker the action can be performed. In short, the order from the brain shrinks from "Order all troops throughout the galaxy to ambush and kill all the Jedi" to "Execute Order 66." <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />
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Doug Marnick
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby Doug Marnick » Mon May 23, 2005 1:39 pm

I don't think of it as learning so much on a conscious level as per the decision of a batter to swing or a driver to avoid an accident. I think the techniques themselves are learned ad infinitum so that the indes itself is indirectly a learned response. As for muscle memory, I can still play classical musical pieces on piano I've learned 15 years ago without looking while holding a conversation. perhaps it is a trained nerve response.
Finally, as to the 4am feedings, (note the time of my earlier post) my muscles do not snap into play like steel springs but rather stagger on like a sailor's hangover. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Doug Marnick

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"The sword was a weapon of grace, nobility, and honor... which was little comfort as you slowly bled to death in a dung-filled moat."

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Sean_Gallaty
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby Sean_Gallaty » Mon May 23, 2005 1:54 pm

As I learn and believe, there are three parts to my martial arts and my practice.

My conscious mind
My physical body
My reflexes, or my unconscious mind.

My goal in training is to harden my physical body, and repeat actions with my conscious mind until my unconscious mind knows to do them when it sees the opportunity to do them.

Once my body is strong, my unconscious knows the moves and when to do them, then my conscious mind is free to make decisions clearly.

I learned this first in Sa Shin Ryu, an interesting japanese naval close-fighting style based on Okinawan Karate focused on elbow/knee/multiple opponents.

Every martial style I've studied since practices it, implicitly if not explicitly.
Start with yourself.

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TimSheetz
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby TimSheetz » Tue May 24, 2005 1:51 am

HI Guys,

Reference the question of "muscle memory"... thre is no such thing literally, but it implies conducting actions without thinking, "oh, I need to do that..."

There are 4 levels of competency...

Unconscious Incompetence, Conscious Incometence, Conscience Cempetence, and Unconscious Competence.

Unconscious Incompetence is a guy who stinks, but dosn't realize it....
Conscious Incompetence is a guy who stinks and he knows it (the only way to improve).
Conscious Competence is a guy who is competent when he thins on his actions and can do OK when he consciously tries...
Unconscious Competence is a guy who is competence without thinking about it. His competency is reflexive and happens without thining about it. This is the level we strive for and the level that makes opperating in IN DES easy.

Oh, I read this in "On Combat" by LTC (ret) Grossman. Great book.

Tim
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Sean_Gallaty
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby Sean_Gallaty » Tue May 24, 2005 7:50 am

Well, that also follows with my independent exploration.

What I've learned also is that one can only be taught to be consciously incompetent. One be taught what one is doing wrong, and eliminate those errors. rote method is the grindstone

drill is the path from conscious incompetence to conscious competence drill is the whetstone

and teaching is the path from conscious competence to unconscious competence. there's a deep introspection that comes from explaining what you think you know to others. teaching others is the strop that perfects the edge.
Start with yourself.

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John_Clements
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Re: Jack London decribes "In des"?

Postby John_Clements » Tue May 24, 2005 5:44 pm

I like it!
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