Albion sword edge damage

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Bill Welch
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Albion sword edge damage

Postby Bill Welch » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:39 pm

Has anyone else ever had edge damage to an albion blade, while test cutting?
My brother and I were doing some test cutting last week, and I took a cut at a fresh deer leg, first cut went through flesh and bone left a little tag of skin, but nothing unexpected.
second cut a rising cut to the same leg and cut through skin but not really into the bone, just cut into it.
third cut cut completely thru good clean cut, but when I looked at my blade I was stunned. A chunk 1 cm x about 1/10 cm was gone.
So far the Albion people have said that it is not covered by their warrenty, and that i can send it back and they will fix at a charge or I can fix myself.
Now my sword is a first gen Crecy War Sword, and I may be wrong, but I would have thought that a well made sword would have gone thru a bone like a deer leg with no problem.
I dont have the Pics of the cut yet but, will have before long.
In the video, yes also took video, you can see the spray from the cut on the leg, so the leg was not dried out, it was quite wet.
photos of edge are at http://photos.yahoo.com/bossqwjw
Thanks, Bill
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Shane Smith
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby Shane Smith » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:46 pm

There is no possibility of bullet/grill fragments in the target is there? Deer season's a while off here in NC yet... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Bill Welch
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby Bill Welch » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:52 pm

Shane posted:
"There is no possibility of bullet/grill fragments in the target is there? Deer season's a while off here in NC yet... "
No, It was frozen from last season, but was allowed to thaw for 2 days. I have video from unwrapping to cutting, and it was very thawed out.
Thanks, Bill

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Aaron Pynenberg
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:06 pm

I think that it is only natural, even historical examples have some nicks and damage to them. It is a piece of metal after all and a very thin piece at that, even though well made it can still fail- I would have them grind it out, Aaron
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JeffGentry
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby JeffGentry » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:18 pm

Hey Bill

That look's very similar to what happened to David Kite's blade from his edge coming off that flat of mine, It look's like it would easily removed by a file and stone, I am realy starting to wonder if maybe we are not making these edge's too sharp and that is what the problem is.

The sharper the edge the thinner the metal.


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Bill Welch
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby Bill Welch » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:37 pm

Hey Jeff, the edge is real fine on this crecy, and I think that is probably the problem, or it is too soft. Lance chan's sword from Albion was of very uneven temper from the posts I have read.
Thanks, Bill

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JeffGentry
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby JeffGentry » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:43 pm

Hey Bill

Did something happen to lance's Brescia?

I am not sure what you are talking about, ii hadn't heard anyhting about it.

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david welch
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby david welch » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:47 pm

Lance's Brescia did almost the same thing cutting through "pig's feet", if I understand it correctly.
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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:53 pm

BW:

Sorry to learn about that. It could have happened for a number of reasons, but it is a safe wager that other swords, whether historic or replica, have shown such trauma from strikes. Hopefully your sword's small setback can be dealt with and returned to working form, and that it be otherwise structurally sound.

However, if you want to determine final bevel of edge, then get a protracter and a small ruler, you can decently accurately determine the angle of the final bevel of the edge.

Peter Johnsson, in the sharpening section of Lindholm's Ringeck book, states that an historical final bevel was somewhere from 30 to 50 degrees.

BTW: I have utilised the above technique and advice to sharpen a longsword recently to a reasonably sharp yet fairly hearty edge.

JH
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Bill Welch
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby Bill Welch » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:07 pm

I will try to see if I can determine the bevel, I would also like to go to a metel shop and see what the hardness is for the blade.

I also have two more pics of the leg cut where you can see the spray from the Leg.(Thanks Dave!)

Lances sword lost the very edge of his, the thread is at
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4091
and http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4150

They pretty much gave Lance a real hard time, for no more than reporting the Facts.
Thanks, Bill

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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby david welch » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:14 pm

Sorry to learn about that. It could have happened for a number of reasons, but it is a safe wager that other swords, whether historic or replica, have shown such trauma from strikes.


Well Jeffrey, that is about what the manufacturer said at the Blade show yesterday.

Just for fun I went out and and cut up an old dog bone that has been out in the yard for a couple of years with an old machette I have. I crushed it up, really... it was too hard to "cut". With no edge damage.

I don't have anything in this, except I was the one filming it... and I was going to buy one before this happened. But I still am failing to see how it is unreasonable to expect a 500 (or in Lance's case +1500) dollar sword to perform at the same level as a South American machette made from questionable metal with questionable heat treatment that I bought at Smokey Mountain Knifeworks for $5 plus tax.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:57 pm

Well David, since you put it that way, then I would concur that Bill should not accept what constitutes a dismissive on the part of the maker. So please do not take my statement as such.

Now, to further that point, I can honestly say that I have put much cheaper but apparently tougher Windlass longswords through use (and sometimes, admittedly, abuse) in practice cutting against 1 to 1.5 inch saplings and have never gotten edge damage similar to the unfortunate BW's Albion blade.

So really, I agree that one should expect more toughness from a sword than what BW and LC got, especially considering the cutting targets and the expense involved.

Good luck guys,

Jeffrey
JLH



*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

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Joe Fults
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Albion sword edge damage

Postby Joe Fults » Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:26 pm

I have not experienced problems with an Albion product yet. I also anticipate purchasing more from them in the future. They handle very well and are wonderful aesthetically. However, this is not the first edge issue I've seen. Tools suffering damage I understand, but I wonder if its the right tool for some jobs as things stand.
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Bill Welch
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby Bill Welch » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:07 pm

I have added some better pics of the edge at
http://photos.yahoo.com/bossqwjw
I like the sword it handles great has good balance, and with the exeption of the edge failure, I was extremely pleased with my whole Albion "Experience".
Thanks, Bill

You have got to love the violence inherent in the system.

Your mother is a hamster and your father smell of Elderberries.

david welch
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Re: Albion sword edge damage

Postby david welch » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:14 pm

Tools suffering damage I understand, but I wonder if its the right tool for some jobs as things stand


Joe,

yes, you ought to have the right tool for the job. However, this was a Crecy war sword.

From the Albion web site:
http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-crecy-xvi.htm

Crecy was one of the most decisive battles of the 100 Years War. After the battle of Sluys, Edward III landed in Normandy in July 1346 with about 10,000 men. The French pursued. Edward III decided to halt near Crecy in Normandy and to prepare for battle the next day.

However, the French vanguard made contact and started to attack without the benefit of a plan. The French made as many as 15 attacks and the English checked each one in turn, primarily thanks to the English longbowmen. In the end, the French were decimated and the English had a decisive victory.

The Crecy is one type of sword that would have seen service on both sides during the 100 Years War.

Oakeshott describes the Type XVIa as having a long, tapering blade, broad at the hilt, with a sharp, often reinforced, point.

The Crecy is a fine example of a later period epee de guerre, or war sword, a refinement of the earlier XIIa in response to changes in the armour of the period.


From the Arador Armour Library:
http://www.arador.com/articles/spaulders.html


Figure 15 is that of Sir Hugh Despenser (Tewkesbury Abbey, Gloucestershire) from 1349. Sir Hugh exhibits spaulders that are of the same form seen previously, but is perhaps the strongest example to draw from. The date of this depiction, and those of Figures 7, 8, and 14 reinforces the conclusion that the fully developed spaulder appeared by the 1350s. This form remained fashionable for 50 years as will be seen on the following page. Spaulder representations that may be construed as leather virtually vanish at this time, so it will be assumed from here on that they are iron unless specifically noted otherwise.

Image

Now I might be wrong... and it wouldn't be the first time... but I would think that a "War Sword" would have been expected and designed to have at least seen incidental contact with armour.

The deer leg Bill cut was off a deer that was legal, but barely. It was young, and the outside diameter of the leg was smaller than my first two fingers together. I have medium sized hands. To me, that means each of the two lower leg bones were smaller than one of my fingers.

I would think that a sword that was made to fight someone in metal armour should not be defeated be just having the knight switching to bone and hide armour. I would also think that a sword that was designed to fight an armoured opponent should survive undamaged contact with bone, no matter how old and hard the bone was.

What I have learned from this is I need to buy the cheapest functional sword I can because I want to use it. I can get one like that for around $100. More than that, and apparently you are paying for a piece of sculpture, not a better made, more functional sword.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.


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