Fient or change through?

[Matt_Bruskotter]

Just a quick question. Could anyone tell me the difference between a feint or a change through? When I read the manuals, it sounds like a change through is during a bind but can sometimes be used out of the bind. I know it's not a great subject for discussion, but this has been vexing me all week and I can't figure it out. Thanks!

[Matthew_Anderson]

Changing through, or Durchwechseln, is to move your blade from one side of his to the other. This is normally associated with a bind where he is strongly displacing you so you slide along his blade, change through to the other side and thrust him. A feint is really any technique that forces him to react to it so you can do a follow-on technique or create an opening. For a feint to be effective, it must be in range and on target so it doesn't look like a feint, but simply an attack. Just my $.02, your mileage may vary.

[Mike Cartier]

The way i understand the two from Meyer's work changing through can be done from the bind or as a feint or even as a type of cut. As a feinting attack using the handwork of Ablauffen, (running off, flowing off).
Feinting in meyer's fight system seems to take 2 forms, Changing through or Failing. Changing through is the act of stepping and cutting but pulling the blade just as it is about to connect with the opponent's defense. If the initial cut is a right Zornhau the blade is pulled and the blade is brought back to the left shoulder avoiding the opponent's attempted bind or parry, flowing around in an arc you strike a left to right Zornhau, hopefully if you have suckered him in you will be cutting down over his weapon.
Failing is the same thing without the Ablauffen handwork, instead of pulling the blade back to the left side of the body you redirect the blade while it is extended out there redirecting it around the opponent's weapon.

Matt is correct that a proper feint has all the elements of a real strike, intent, footwork, extension etc else the opponent will not be suckered in.

Meyer also describes changing through in the act of cutting during his longsword and Dusack drills. basically the cutting change through is cutting in on one line and out on another, (eg: left to right zornhau and right to left mittelhau, to scheitelhau) The strike flows smoothly from one line to another.

[Jake_Norwood]

Feint? What's a feint? I don't recall Liechtenauer ever referencing such a thing...

Seriously, though, I suppose a Durchwechsel is a feint...or rather it can be. But I would rather say try not to think in those terms--it isn't, as far as we can tell--how they thought about it.

Changing through is what it is, and it does what it does. It's a specific technique which harnesses a principle. Both of them can be used as a "feint," but remember that a "feint" is not a technique--it's a way of using a technique.

Jake

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

Is changing through a "specific" technique or a principle of going from one thing/side to another?

Such as cutting to binding/winding/thrusting or defending to attacking, or changing throughout the fight from your left side defending to attacking there right side?

Just MHO


Jeff

[philippewillaume]

hello
Changing through (according to Ringeck that is) is changing the point under the sword of the opponent as a response to a strong bind

The feints (feller) using the krump or the swerch are like changing through but you will do so without contact with your opponent blade
You do it against some who fence short (krump) or against some one who relies on fencing defensively.
There are other feints (feler) that have nothing do with changing through but If I got you question right you are interested in the difference between the feints that use a changing through motion like and the actual changing through.

I would say that the change through is created by your opponent basically you are just using his imput as opposed to the feint that use the same movement where you generate every thing.
So you could say that you do a change through because it is there, so in a way your opponent gives it to you. In any case you do not know before striking that you are going to do a change through but you chose before hand to do a feint, if you see what I mean.

Phil

[Jake_Norwood]

What Phillippe said.

Jake

[Matt_Bruskotter]

Thanks guys. That helped. I was getting alittle confused because most techniques seemed to be used against a fencer to attacks the sword. I assume parrying the sword, instead of using the master cuts, are "attacking" the sword. Thus they are susceptable to changing through and feints. I see the difference bewteen the two. They're very similar. Time to practice!