A sword for the day

[Justin Blackford]

A hypothetical question has popped into my head.

If it was legal to carry a live blade at your side(and if firearms weren't the norm), what weapon would you favour as being an ideal form of personal defense in a modern urban environment?

I have asked this question to my colleagues-in-arms. One friend said he would take a rapier for defense anyday. Another favours the Renaissance shortsword with the buckler. Another favours the longsword, and another the katana, and another the gladius.

I am still debating this question to myself, but I am interested to see what most other swordsmen think as being a more ideal sword for personal defense in the modern day.

Justin

[Jeffrey Hull]

Maybe the good old Messer.

That seemd to fit the bill for those travelling between town and country back then.

It was a farmers/hunters tool/weapon, so it was not inordinately conspicuous, at least not wherever one went in the Germanic world of the Renaissance (except for maybe church, school or hospital)

[JeanryChandler]

A lot would depend on whether you mean a smaller city or town where you were walking around, and therefore were limited as to what you could carry, vs, say trips through the country or (if you were wealthier) through a larger city on horseback or by coach or carriage.

In the former case, you would have to seriously think about the tradeoff between the bulk and hassle of carrying a large weapon around all the time vs. how safe the weapon could make you. In the latter case, the less restrictions you have on the bulk of what can be carried on a horse or in a carriage say, can give you a lot more options.

So for walking only, in situtions where say I had to work or go about normal business, I'd probably carry something like an arming sword, maybe a katzbalger or a large coustile or cinqueda type sword, oakeshotte XXII (IIRC ??), probably in partnership with a large, heavy dagger for two weapon fighting. The dagger would help you defend yourself against thrusting weapons like a rapier...

In intermediate situations, like for short trips or trips with a moderately high likelyhood of ambush, I think a longsword or bastard sword, for it's versatility against the widest possible range of opposing weapons.

If space was no object, I think I would definately carry a shield or targe, and a good heavy cut-and-thrust sword like a Schiavona or a Pallasch. If you are facing the possibilty of facing multiple opponents, and /or thrown weapons, I think a shield is extremely wise decision.

So would a blunderbuss...

Jeanry

P.S. if you are a gentleman who prefers thrusting weapons, I'd recommend a good alternative to the smallsword which was very popular here in New Orleans where one was equally as likely to face trouble from the uncouth cudgel armed ruffian as the refined epee armed gentleman: the Colichemarde. This was a type of smallsword with a heavy forte for parrying your more crude, heavy weapons wielded by burly thugs, while retaining the agility and sharp point to dispatch gentlemen who have been to a few fencing classes...

[Justin Blackford]

Well, in the case of being in a more crowded big-city type of urban environment, I guess the rapier or smallsword would seem appropriate for more of the close-quarters linear combat, since I've walked through some alleys that were barely as wide as my shoulders. But a sturdy arming sword/shortsword/sidesword/cut-and-thrust sword (whatever variation you prefer) would work well with the dagger combination as Jeanry pointed out in the everyday business walking around situation.
However, the longsword could still be effective in that situation given it's wide range of half-sword techniques...

Justin

[s_taillebois]

Well, it would seem that a staff and dagger or stylet would be useful. Wasn't always an advantage to be encumbered with a battlefield weapon...especially when buying bread or the day to day trivia.
Rapiers, a bit of a nuisance in close quarters and bustling, inadvertantly poking someone could in itself provoke a fight. Apparently Elizabeth the first, ordered any rapier over a yard or so broken, as they had become a nuisance to trade and commerce.
And anyway, in any modern context (even if it was legal, there's always the 'brandishing' caveat), being too obvious with a large pointed steel object is likely to ensure your removal to a place where the weapons of choice are shanks and sharpened can lids...Alas how things have changed...

[Jaron Bernstein]

Wasn't the rapier designed primarily for unarmored urban civilian combat?

[s_taillebois]

Generally the rapier was early on a civilian weapon. Partially intended as a status item, and partially as a weapon against footpads and others roaming the streets.
Another factor was the dueling culture, apparently duels for honour, as brutal as these may have been by modern standards...had some limitations on the level to which the violence escalated. Such things as 'to the first blood' and such. Rapiers, albeit lethal at times, would do much less maiming than say a longsword, or great sword. A strange distinction, mayhaps, but no doubt it played a part in the rapiers popularity. Essentially if you survived your duel, somewhat less of a chance of coming out so mutilated as to be completely socially unacceptable.

[s_taillebois]

And back to the initial question, if I could do so, would carry a late type bastard sword...good for point work, but still has a cutting edge. And somewhat less to carry around than a great sword or the like.
Plus, that's the type I practice with....
That said, it would seem in a modern context, a shortened stylet would be the older weapon most likely to fit into a modern context. For much the same reason as these were originally practical in good company, it can be worn without being obstrusive, but are still useable. (albeit not as useful as a wide dagger in some conditions)

[DaveSmith]

Based on logistics, I think the staff might be my weapon of choice... inconspicous, cheap, long reach (the list goes on). Although, assuming I was walking through a crowded city with little room to move a big weapon around... I think it might be best to have the messer or maybe falchion (maybe pushing it?)... which is incidently my current weapon of choice anyway.

[Grant Hall]

I am a huge fan of the Two-Handed sword, but as a pratical side-arm I dont think it quite makes the cut.
I would look more too a large longsword (perhaps even a bastard-sword) or a smaller Greatsword, these I would use because of reach, power, versatility and Sheer Intimidation, (I think people would be less inclined to start a 6'6" tall man with a 5' sword on his back/side.)
However, due to the possiblitiy of small alleys and such, I think it is imperative to also arm yourself with perhaps a shortsword and dagger.

I think the praticality of a messer would also make it a good choice.

[Jeff Hansen]

I'd have to go with a staff and a dagger. You would, actually, need less room to use a staff than a longsword, or even a messer or arming sword for that matter. And, of course, the dagger for really close work.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gent's

I think i would have to go with a staff, it is one of those unobtrusive thing's you can carry and most would not think of you as being armed, a dagger also come's in handy.

Jeff

[Grant Hall]

I notice a few people now have chosen the staff, as I have not had much (if any) experience in its use I wonder, how effective is it, and how quickly can one dispose of a threat with it?

Would a trained staff wielder be able to (easily) defeat a trained swordsmen using say a longsword or greatsword?

And what about multiple opponents using quick cutting and slashing (EDIT: & THRUSTING) weapons.

I know this is a bit off topic but I am just curious as to why so many people favour a staff when you can legally (in keeping with the hypothetical situation in this post) use any weapon you desire.

Again sorry for going off topic, and thanks.

[Justin Blackford]

Actually, I don't think that you are straying far off topic with the hypothetical question I asked.

I have trained quite a bit with the staff when I was in Aikido for six years(though, we called it a Jo), and I think that the use of a walking staff is indeed less conspicuous than one walking around with a bastard-sword or a longaxe.
As far as being able to dispatch multiple opponents, I have witnessed trained staff wielders from both the EMA and WMA take care of several opponents given that the weapon is rather light and has a long reach.
The only thing I might have against the use of the staff in the hypothetical situation I created is that it isn't quite as fast for the kill as ,say, the rapier and dagger or the longsword. The percussive damage from being hit really hard by a staff could prove to be fatal if hit in the right area with the proper application of strength and intent, but a puncture wound from the rapier or a rigidly-tapered longsword might dispatch an opponent a lot quicker.
Not to sound too cold-blooded, but if I am in a situation where I am surrounded by multiple opponents who intend to do me serious bodily harm, I would not lose any sleep if I had to kill anybody to prevent them from killing me. Therefore, I think I might choose the rapier and dagger for urban defense, since the thrust is faster than the cut and is closer to the adversary.
Puncture wounds could kill quicker, too. A cut or slash to an opponent in a vital area could kill him, but might not end the fight quickly enough, since it can take time to bleed out enough to the point where his fighting capability is neutralized. A tough opponent might still have enough of a fight left in him to try to finish you off before he goes.
I hope I haven't made this post sound too gross, but hey, this is martial arts.

Justin

[JeffGentry]

Hey Justin

The only thing I might have against the use of the staff in the hypothetical situation I created is that it isn't quite as fast for the kill as ,say, the rapier and dagger or the longsword.

I am not so worried about killing them if i can sufficiently disable them, if a man can't stand he can't fight, so if i destroy a knee, or knock him out i have achieved my aim neutralizing the threat.

I think I might choose the rapier and dagger for urban defense, since the thrust is faster than the cut and is closer to the adversary.

The staff is a very effective thrusting weapon that is another reason i would choose it, most people don't realize how damaging a thrust from a staff is or how quick it can happen, and a 5 foot rapier is shorter than a 6 foot staff.

the simplicity of the staff is it's greatest asset, most do not realize how dangerous a "stick" can be.


Jeff