Meisterhau for midgets - Zwerchau interpretation.

[Rod-Thornton]

Hey folks:

Here's a question I have for other study groups:

Today at our regular Saturday session in Virginia Beach we were doing some mastercuts drills with a notable observation.

During a number of zwerchaus to counter some oberhaus and zornhaus it seemed to not be as effective when thrown from my shorter frame to Shane's 6' 3" (methinks) frame. Upon numerous analysis it seems as though we were hitting more strong to strong (Now don't everyone suggest the hilt wasn't high enough....it was). However, once we allowed for some slight topography (ground is slightly sloped where we are in the Park) and Shane took a big squat in his stance to bring the cuts closer to sea level - then the zwerchau came right in strong to weak and a nice solid crunch to the side of the temple...every time.

Here's the crux of it: Has anyone else experienced this phenomena of reduced efficacy of the zwerchau to counter zorns when both are using plenty good form but one guy is significantly shorter than the other? (I come up to about his shoulder in height). Shane seems to think the geometry results in not being able to connect "strong" to "weak" as well with the resultant loss of force in the cut.

Thoughts and opinions on this one?

-Rod

[JeffGentry]

Hey Rod

Shane seems to think the geometry results in not being able to connect "strong" to "weak" as well with the resultant loss of force in the cut.

I am inclined to agree with Shane it sound's like a signifigant diffrence in height and reach, are you sure your getting offline enough, i have noticed when people don't get offline they tend to hit more strong on middle/strong when there is a height diffrence, you may want to think about not countering his zorn with a zwerch you may want to go zorn on his zorn instead.


Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

Perhaps try the Zwerchau more like Meyer's, where it comes almost from underneath, up from below into his weapon path. Its tight and can require some speed to get it to work right but its doable.

The way I see the Meyer zwerchau it doesn't connect the blades at weak to strong at all, but rather connects so soon into the opponent's preparation to strike that it catches it when its about 10-20 % developed, thereby catching it strong to strong but with the opponent's blade at a significant disadvantage due to it being pressed back. The strike should be easily pushed home from there or should have happened simultaneously

[joelthompson1]

We have that same situation here in Va. Beach as well. I have two shorter members in my group. I'm about 6'4" and both of these men are around 5' 7". We've encountered the same problems with the zwerch against the zorn. We're in agreement with the other comments. In addition, we've noticed that the shorter man can be a bit more agressive and step directly into his opponent instead of moving offline. This also has the advantage of catching the zorn before it is fully generated instead of the usual strong against weak. Otherwise, if the zwerch just isn't working for you but you still like the false edge cut, we recommend the scheilhau. You can still get a nice cut to the face or hands, and/or it leaves the shorter fighter with an excellent thrust opportunity from left side pflug after the strike.

Joel

[joelthompson1]

Upon further reflection, it could be argued (depending on your interpretation) that the zwerchau used as a meisterhau is not intnded to counter a zornhau, but rather a vertical downward oberhau from vom tag.
In this case, we don't really see a disadvantage for the shorter fighter. It seems to work pretty well, although the Meyer style upper cut is still a good idea. In this case, we do NOT recommend that the shorter fighter step directly into his opponent, but rather step offline in traverse as you normally would. Just to clarify.

Joel

[Randall Pleasant]

Rod

At the start of practice today I asked Matt, one of the shortest member of the ARMA DFW study group who is about 5' 7, use the Zwerchau to counter Oberhau cuts from Travis, our tallest member who is 6' 7''. While Matt & Travis's blades did hit strong on strong the technique work with no problems. Given that we are talking about a counter-cut rather than a winding, what is the issue with the strong on strong blade contact? Even if the shorter man's Zwerchau did not hit the taller man, the shorter man is still in a good position to perform other techniques.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Ran

Zorn is the counter to Zorn, Zwerch is for the other oberhau's AFAIR, zwerch alway's seemed a little awkward for countering a zornhau because the zornhau is a diagonel cut and zwerch is more a straight cross cut so the angle wasn't to my liking and i wasn't comfortable with using it that way although i do occasionaly.

Even if the shorter man's Zwerchau did not hit the taller man, the shorter man is still in a good position to perform other techniques.

I think this is also part of why Zwerch is a good defensive counter strike in not all situation's, alot of situation's though it "set's you for advantage".


Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Hello
Based on my own experience, I have spared with taller and shorter opponent and I do not think that height matter that much. You probably going to cut their arms more than their body compared to your normal ratio but I do not think that really matter in the case at hand. I think what you found was what should happen and the “ab-normal bit” was when you made it work…

Please bear in mind that I am principally using Ringeck.
Here what the old man said.
Merck, der zwerhaw bricht alle hew, die von oben nyder gehawen werden.
Note the zwerch breaks all strike that are stricken from top to bottom.
So it does not necessarily works against a zorn (even a fairly vertical one). He does not say that it works against any oberhaw. But I think as well that Zorh is special case for the swerch. At the end of the sword section you have:

Also brich die zwerck.
Item, wann du stanst in vorhu°t vom tag vnd ainer vff dich hawet mitt der schwerch, so haw den zorn haw glych mit im ein starck vff sin schwert; vnd su°ch die blöß mitt dem ort. Vnd will er denn vm sich schlachen mitt der zwerch zu° der andern sytten, so kom du vor mitt der zwerch vnder syn schwert zu° sinem halß; oder schnyd in mitt der langen schnyden jn die arm, wenn er vm schlöcht

Like so break the zwerch
Item, when you stand front guard “von tag” and someone strike at you with the zwerch. So likewise strike a zohrn, strong onto his sword and seek the openings with the point. And will he then strike at you with the Zwerch on the other side, so you come with before with a Zwerch under his sword at his throat, or you Schnitt with the long edge and the arms when he strike around.
So you see the Zorhn is kind of supposed to breaks the swerch.

I think the swerch should be stricken strong on strong. (there is several pieces that follows the bit that will quote below and there are about if he hold strong or weak)

In the passages on the swerch we are told that;

Ain stuck vß dem zwerhaw.
Zwer mit der stoerck: dein arbait do mit moerck.
Glosa.
Das ist, wie dü mit der stoerck auß der zwer arbaiten solt. Vnd dem thu°n also: wen dü jm mit der zwer zu° hauest, so gedenck das dü jm mit der zwer sterck deines schwerts starck in das sin hauest. Helt den er starck wyder so schlach jn am schwert mit gekrutztrn armen, hinder seines schwertz klingen, vff den kopff; (28 r )oder schnyd jn mit dem stuck dürch das maul.

Another piece of the zwerch
Zwerch with the strong: your work mark with that.
That is when you are to work with the strong out of the Zwerch. And you do it like so, when you strike him with the zwerch bear in mind that you are striking strongly with the strong of your sword against his. Hold he strongly against (you) so you strike him at the sword with crossed hands, behind his blade, onto the head or schnitt him with this piece across the muzzle/mouth.

What do you think ?
phil.

[Rod-Thornton]

Hmmm.

From reading through the posts, it would appear as though the zwerch, while it "breaks what comes from the roof," would fair better with more vertical cuts/oberhaus, but fairs lesser against zornhaus or more diagonal ones, as heights become dissimilar. I wonder, Ran, did your experiment try a myriad of diagonal cuts (zornhau) as well as regular oberhaus? The issue with strong on strong is simply a matter of getting in there with enough "oomph" to effect a good cut to the temple on the return strike.

Regarding the comment (Joel, I think) that upon further reflection that the zwerch could be argued not to counter a zorn, I dunno about that one. If the cut "breaks what comes from the roof" then it does, right? Albeit maybe not as efficiently as another zorn at times.

[joelthompson1]

Just to further the arguement a little bit and to clarify my earlier remarks in answer to Rod. If your interpretation of a meisterhau is that it is an entering move designed to break a guard such as vom tag, then the zwerch works just fine regardless of the height difference between the fighters or whether the opponent was getting ready generate a zornhau. The main thing here is that the zwerch is generated first. If, however, your opponent's sword is over his right shoulder in a zornhut, the problems of height, strong against strong, etc. come into play. Hence my remark that the zwerchau is not intended to counter a zornhau. My interpretation is that a true meisterhau zwerch counters all oberhaus from the true vomtag, but not from the zornhut over the right shoulder. As has been mentioned, the zorn counters the zorn. The interpretation lies in what one wishes to call a true meisterhau. Is it really a meisterhau if your are countering a cut that has already been initiated? In other words, if you go second to your opponent's initiating move?

Joel

[Bill Welch]

I would say yes. It still embodies what is a Meisterhau, it covers you(closes a line of attack from your opponant) and strikes your opponant, at the same time. Regardless of who strikes first.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gent's

Joel is correct that zorn break's zwerch, when you throw a zwerch the opponent should through the zorn, you can "make" it work as a counter cut to zorn the timing and range have to be right on the button I personaly don't like doing this.

If you want to use the 5 hidden strike's as a defense/offense you also need to know what strike's can be fenced from each gaurd and what line/opening each gaurd close's and leave's open and then if you want to wait on an attack and counter cut or use Nachriesen to attack the opening he just gave you you can do this also.

i.e. He is in right och's you are in left vom tag, he throw's a zornhau (right to left) and step's forward with the right foot, he just presented his right side to you, you traverse left and void forward and throw a zornhau and he get's hit in the head, now keep in mind you need to be aware of the proper range and timing to do this it is a simple fact that if you are in a left gaurd and he is in a right when he strike's from the right shoulder you are in a perfect position to hit his right side, this can be done on both side's.

The 5 hidden strike's have to be used in the proper way i.e. krump to och's, zwerch to oberhau, and in the right range with the right timing other wise they do not work as intended, this is why i think they are "Master strike's" because you need to have "Mastery" of the whole range timing distance thing in order to use them properly, not because they cannot be defended against or are so hard to do physicly, the action's in and of themselve's are simplicity the other thing's are what are difficult to "Master".

Remeber one of the Trait's of a good fighter is knowledge.


IMHO

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Hello rod
I would say that you are right and you are wrong but the argumenents are is not mutually exclusive.

In all the text (lichtanauer related) you have the zwerch breaks von tag and hence what ever may come from it, since your opponent is not likely to wait for you.
So you are right to say that it breaks what ever comes from the roof.

Ringeck is the only one to mention the zhorn breaking the zwerch. But if we go back to Dobringer we are told that any of the masterhaw is nothing more that particular type of ober haw or/and unter haw.
So based on that we could say that every master haw can potentially defeat every master haw.
So how can they break the guards if the strike that breaks the guard is a nothing more than a glorified unter or uberhaw that can be defeat by another glorified unter or uberhaw
For me the trick is the distance and the measure as the German master put it. (Which can really be understood and explain in plenty of way according to each interpretation)
But the think is that the zhorn reduces the intrinsic margin of error/safety net you have when you do the strike against von tag. So if for a reason X,Y or Z you swerch is not as crips as it should the zhorn will take advantage of that.

I think this is compounded by the fact that the swerch has a fair amount of technical challenge into it. to defeat you (or to get in a 50-50 situation) will require to perform the Zhron as well as you perform the Zwerch
So a good delivery requires more work than a much simpler Zornh. This basically can be interpreted in the way that it is easier to do a good Zhorn than to produce a Zwerch of the same quality.
Once you are happy with your Zwerch it will become as natural as the Zhorn to you
to defeat you (or to get in a 50-50 situation) it will require to perform the Zhron as well as you perform the Zwerch and your opponent will not get away with as much as he used to.

I hope that was not too confusing.
Ps you is to be understood as one and is not anybody in particular.

[joelthompson1]

Bill writes. "It still embodies what is a Meisterhau, it covers you(closes a line of attack from your opponant) and strikes your opponant, at the same time. Regardless of who strikes first." I really have to disagree here with the part about who strikes first. I think being the one who initiates the strike is inherent in it being a true master cut. I agree with a line of thinking (Dobringer, I think) that defines "indes" as not a simultaneous attack but rather an attack initiated at moment the opponent's INTENT is obvious. For example, if your opponent is in vom tag, it's a pretty good bet he's going to generate an oberhau of some sort. If you generate your zwerchau before he begins any oberhau, you will win the exchange.
Two things can happen here. One, he must begin his strike as a reaction to your motion. You are already moving offline and generating your zwerch. You cannot lose this exchange if everything is performed correctly. You are on the right side of his blade and there isn't any defense. Second, just by chance, he begins his cut simultaneously with your movement. Since he is not reacting to you, he is not trying to counter you. Once again, you are moving offline and generating your zwerch, and again you will be on the right side off his sword and win the exchange. This is true even if he tries to throw out a zornhau. From vom tag, he must first move his blade slightly to his right to create the diagonal angle of the cut. We are talking in fractions of seconds here, but this is why it is essential that the one throwing out the meisterhau goes first.
This is the true essence of indes and keeping the initiative that Leichtenauer teaches. In my humble opinion, of course.
This is why I say that the zwerch may not work against a zornhau thrown from the zornhut position off the right shoulder of your opponent. If your opponent is in zornhut, you have different possibilities regarding the types of cuts that might be thrown. From here, they don't all have to be oberhaus. An unterhau or a zwerch could also be thrown, just to name a couple. So the zwerchau wouldn't be the choice for a meisterhau. Indes cannot be achieved because the strikes don't match up. You would choose the zornhau for your master cut and again step offline to create the advantage of being on the right side of his cut and able to displace his blade as you cut.
So to get back to the original question, I think the shorter fighter has no disadvantage if he is throwing out a true (in my opinion) and correct meisterhau. If the opponent goes first, the zwerch can still work, but the aforementioned ideas would have to be used. A Meyer style zwerch or maybe stepping directly into the opponent to beat the zornhau to the punch, so to speak. Clear as mud? Well, anyway, that's my dollar's worth.

Joel

[Shane Smith]

Upon further reflection, it could be argued (depending on your interpretation) that the zwerchau used as a meisterhau is not intnded to counter a zornhau, but rather a vertical downward oberhau from vom tag.

Hi Joel, from Ringecks work;

"The Zwerchhau counters (literally "breaks") all downward strikes made from above. Do it like this: If he strikes an Oberhau at your head, "jump" (make a large, explosive step) to his left side with your right foot, while you jump, turn your sword, so that your hilt is high in front of your head and your thumb is down (on the flat of the blade) and strike at his left side with your short edge. So you catch his strike with your hilt and hit him simultaneously on the head."

To me, "all downward strikes made from above" certainly includes zornhau, the most likely strike from above. it's also obvious from the text that you are zwerching in response to his oberhau.

I note that I consistantly have no problem displacing Rods,(or Matts, Cathy's, Bills etc.) Zorn with a zwerch at speed, but When Rod and I worked it at speed with the padded weapons after some half-speed work with wasters, he was engaging my forte with his own and therefore a hard bind was achieved. To compensate, Rod simply twitched a zwerch to the off side as he would do in bouting.

It seems to me that my height and long reach is actually crowding his counter-zwerch as he strikes for my head, and geometry being what it is, my full-power zorn strikes his full-speed zwerch on the strong as his hands are out and up to cover his head with the hilt and my own hands are stretched straight out to make the zorn. It's hard to explain but easily shown as he has to come close enough to strike my head, yet that closeness earns him my forte instead of my mid or weak. We will have to experiment with more extreme lateral movement on his part however, that may possibly help a bit if he is able to spring in and over into my cut fast enough to catch my blow before it is even half developed...but that aint easy, I'm not too terribly sluggish in delivery. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I trust that all of you shorter fencers that have commented have tried this at full speed against a guy of much greater height? That does make a difference as it causes your opponent to have a more fully generated blow than he would have at lower speeds due to reaction time on your part. That will cause you to be more "crowded" at delivery as is occurring in Rod's case I believe as he does it fine at less than full speed and he likewise does it fine at full speed against lesser stature as the geometry changes a bit.