Fat no defense

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John_Clements
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Fat no defense

Postby John_Clements » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:14 am

I was watching this really good program about gladiators the other night on Discovery Channel, where, after examining hundreds of gladiator bones from a huge recent grave find in Turkey, forensic anthropologist, Dr. Karl Grossschmidt of the University of Vienna, said he believes Roman gladiators survived massive wounds. But the bizarre part was where he then noted that their heavy diet of barley and beans made them “fat vegetarians,” as the press is miss-portraying his comments. Dr. G. however concluded that they devised the diet primarily, “to protect themselves from slashing wounds and damage to nerves and blood vessels, with the layer of fat supplementing their scant armour.”

Sorry to all my heavy friends out there, but the idea that a layer of fat over muscle would significantly help protect from sword strikes is nonsense. Fat is mostly water. It’s soft and is one of the easiest things to puncture or slice through with a sword. No fighter is going to imagine for a second that blubber would protect him from thrusts and cuts of sharp blades. It seems to me the logical and obvious function of such a diet was the protien & carbohydrate-rich intake necessary for intense physical training or stressful athletic performance. They’d need it in the same way a boxer or runner sheds considerable body weight by burning off fat for energy during matches or distance runs. While Dr. G. could certainly tell from examination of their bones that gladiators trained heavily and were well-conditioned muscular athletes, how he possibly managed to determine they were “fat” from their bones was not explained. I think he was merely speculating outside his area of specialty. In my extensive study of sword wounds injuries, and deaths from the Medieval and Renaissance eras as a historian of fencing, I have never encountered any suggestion that extra body fat was an aid to defense in any way. Indeed, if anything it made a man a slower clumsier target. There is certainly no historical precedent for body fat being any degree of protection in armed close-combat in any martial culture I am aware of (and no, unarmed sport sumo wrestlers don't count). Given the distinctive entertainment function of Roman gladiatorial combats, as opposed to purely martial effectiveness, it would seem more probable that a stocky physique might possibly serve more to slow down a fighter’s movements slight and perhaps encourage blood flow from minor wounds all for the viewing pleasure of the spectators (especially given that they now beleive only 1 in 8 or 9 fights resulted in a death of a combatant).
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philippewillaume
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby philippewillaume » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:50 am

Hello, john

I have seen the program a few months/a year ago on BBC (or was it channel 4)
The rational was that the fat would help closing the cut up vein/arteriole in minor wounds.
The program proposed that those guys were not fat as we see fat people now but athletes with a layer of fat on them.
So I did not get that the fat was used as a protective layer as such.

That what I understood anyway.
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Ray_McCullough
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby Ray_McCullough » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:11 pm

You can tell how muscular someone onece was by the bones. They will be thicker than normal and thicker at the protrusions on the bones where tendons attach. I dont think fat contaent can be determined unless there was a lackof fat or a large amount of fat showing stress on the bones.

Ive also noted a corelation between tendon tearing and joint injuries and the use of steriods. I have known and do know friends who have used steriods in the past and have jiont problems. And alot of athletes tend to tear tendons. Steriods make your muscles bigger stronger and faster ,but it doesnt seem to strengthen the tendons and there attachment points on the bones at the same rate. The muscles simply out grow and out pull what the tendons and the bones can handle. Causing injury.
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:10 pm

"it would seem more probable that a stocky physique might possibly serve more to slow down a fighter’s movements slight and perhaps encourage blood flow from minor wounds all for the viewing pleasure of the spectators."

The audience might like it more, but the gladiator who dies because of his blubber might not. If these contests were to the death, I don't see the fighters willingly being out of shape, given the price is your life. I would almost envision them doing conditioning as modern MMA fighers do (only using swords instead of fists of course) if they hoped to survive in an arena where you can't tap out. Audience be damned.

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GaryGrzybek
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby GaryGrzybek » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:19 pm

Yea, I don't buy that at all. Fat has very little resistance to a blade. Just ask my co-worker who killed and butchered a bear not long ago. <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

That was a good program though.
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TimSheetz
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby TimSheetz » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:19 am

Darn! I have been really altering my diet to really get the biggest advantage from this whole "FAT ARMOR" idea. I was well on my way to adding about 85 pounds of armor to my gear... It was fully intergrated and designed to protect my vitals!

Are you telling me that all that exra eating is in vain!? I guess I'll have to switch back to the lean, mean fighting machine mode of thinking.

;-)

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TimJentoft
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby TimJentoft » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:13 am

The idea isn't that the fat will protect as such. The thing is that a shallow cut will cut the fat, rather than sever muscle tissue and tendons.
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Risto Rautiainen
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby Risto Rautiainen » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:53 am

But if there were no fat, then it wouldn't reach to hit at all! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:27 am

Yes, I've heard this idea proposed a few times from various sources, that a layer of fat is desirable because it's protective. I think it's unlikely that gladiators, whose lives depended on being as good at fighting as they could be, and apparently trained vigorously, would be anything other than very fit and agile. I wouldn't want to rely on body fat to protect me from a sharp blade and I know from personal experience that extra weight makes you slower and tire more easily <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> . There are some good fighters who are very heavy, but they are certainly not the norm, and I think the benefit (if any) of the protective fat layer would be far outweighed by the disadvantage of carrying around the extra weight.
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John_Clements
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby John_Clements » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:00 am

Hi Tim,
But that's just it, shallows cuts do not "sever muscle and tendons." And flesh can sustain signficant lacerations without affecting functionality. The fat is just no protection for anything. Look at the animal kingdom as an example. Thick hides and loose skin are defenses against teeth and claws, not body fat.

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Gene Tausk
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby Gene Tausk » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:53 pm

I can't believe that people can make this argument with a straight face.

I certainly don't expect that Roman Gladiators had a ripped bodybuilders physique, but I am willing to bet they were in excellent cardiovascular shape; they had to be for events that could stretch for a good long time in the hot sun.

In any case, as already discussed, a layer of fat is not going to protect someone from sword cuts or thrusts.


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TimSheetz
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby TimSheetz » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:01 pm

Yeah,

An from what I hae heard from my medical friends... getting fatty tissue to heal is hard - how do you sew it together? How about the blood flow?

Now, having a bit of fat on you when you have been forced to go without food, and are exposed to the elements is a good thing, a survival tool.

For instance, do we really think a sumo wrestler is going to keep up with a guy looking liek one of Talhoffers drawings in an area larger than the sumo ring? Would his expansive "lipidious body armor" actually help keep him alive? I don't think so.

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Logan Weed
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby Logan Weed » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:42 pm

Well, Royce Gracie quite soundly beat Akebono in a wrestling match. So yeah...

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Jeremy Martin
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby Jeremy Martin » Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:12 pm

To play sort of the devils advocate, prehaps some amount of fat could give sort of an illusionary effect. As where you're thinking you can cut and do serious damage is really just piercing largely fatty tissue.

Course whether or not this could be a signioficant advantage of any kind worth having this fat, I do not know.
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Randall Pleasant
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Re: Fat no defense

Postby Randall Pleasant » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:39 am

Jeremy

No illusions. I have seen men gutted, both thin and fat. I have seen nothing that makes me think fat helps.
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