Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

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ElizabethPangerl
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Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby ElizabethPangerl » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:54 am

"Working out in the gym in order to fight better" is an extensive thread on the Unarmed Art forum that deals with types of training done to improve fighting skills. In that thread, a variety of common exercises and some very impressive statistics were shared.

With regard to the impressive statistics, ARMA does involve 5' tall fighters as well as the 6'+ tall fighters. Do the more petite fighters out there follow training regimens similar to the more massive fighters? Anyone willing to share?

Regardless of physique, training & fighting are closely related and both can cause or aggravate injuries. After completing the appropriate rest time recommended by a qualified physician, how have people come back from an injury - any injury?

I'm a novice 5'1" female with bursitis in my knee from treadmill conditioning and I'm wondering how more experienced fighters have gone about recovering or training through (without aggravating) their injuries.
Elizabeth Pangerl
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Mike Cartier
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby Mike Cartier » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:06 am

I have come back from torn meniscus cartlidge surgery, this was about 7 months ago and now My knee is great. Unfortunatly my other knee pops regularly and scares the hell out of my training partners when I do JiuJitsu.

Only hurst for a bit tho <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:25 am

Jeff Gentry from our study group is just getting over his torn ACL.

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JeffGentry
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby JeffGentry » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:39 am

Hey Elizabeth

Well i have had quite few injuries, alot have been very serious, i would say to go see an orthopedic surgeon specializing in sport's medicine, it has been my experience that all Dr. are not equal, also if you do physical therapy look at it as part of your other training and approach it just as seriously do some research on the injury and treatment ask question's.

The end of Dec i had an ACL reconstruction and both meniscus trimmed up and i am in therapy and it has become my sword training since i am not at liberty to do real sword training, to me it is my training though i have my nose stuck in fencing manual's and am constantly researcing ACL and meniscus treatment in order to try diffrent exercise's that will help in recovery, and it seem's to be going very well.

In my opinion it is all up to us when it come's to injuries and treatment.

Jeff
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Rod-Thornton
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby Rod-Thornton » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:17 am

The knees....yep!

I blew out my left knee (the meniscus) with a sickening pop one August fencing/sparring session. Some folks in our group heard the pop on the sidelines, as it were. Completely folded me to the ground. Crutches for two weeks, Surgery in mid-September....and crutched my way back to practice the week after for some light (very light) training (no sparring).

Knee brace and rigid banding, 3 weeks later, contact-sparring and doing exercising. 2+ months later I am still developing strength and flexibility (it still grinds, pops, and "loosens up the tissues" with hyper flexion) but with full function and use.

Our sparring partners have been gracious enough to avoid kicks during sparring while I continue to strengthen, but really, it does little to impede me. Biggest hurdle....developing stamina/cardiovasular (i.e., my "wind") after the event. Still can run tho' 3x week.

-In short, significant injury (Dr. thought I previously had a slight tear in the meniscus from an earlier circumstance that this activity finished the job for me) that recovered well with no impedance to training. Also broke left pinky when receiving a jab that landed betwixt the fingers and shifted things "apart" during a session. -No big deal.

Don't underestimate the value of positive mental attitude and simple psychological toughness in your healing and re-training activity.
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:47 pm

You might ask SFS Stacy Clifford, who is not the largest ARMAteer out there, but is still quite adept at using a blade (and staff).

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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby Shane Smith » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:42 pm

I've suffered a broken hand on a couple of occasions. I trained and fenced singlesword left-handed while the rest of the group did longsword for eight weeks as the right hand healed. After that, I grabbed a longsword waster and made a full and immediate recovery both times.
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby Bill Tsafa » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:44 am

Great thread topic Elizabeth. There are two seperate training issues you bring up here. One is posible injuries form fight training/practice/sparring and the other weight training injuries. I will address them seperately.

First regarding fight training. If it is non-contact, the risks are very minimal I think. Once contact is involved anything can happen. There are two risks. One is from the weapon of your opponent and the other is you twisting your body in some way it does not like to be twisted in. If the weapon is foam, then the risk of the weapon is minimal and consequetly the training unrealistic. As the weapon gets harder and heavier to padded wood, the risks go up. When you go to wood or alluminum things get serious. To paraphrase what I read somewhere " in the race between armor and weapons, armor lost". No matter how much protection you have, a wooden waster is still as dangerous as a bat or club. So as the realism goes up, the risks go up. There is always some way for the weapon to harm you.

On the other side you have the risk of hurting yourself from a miss-step or slip. Sprained ankles are not fun. Danger is inharrent in what we do. We are training for war after all. Traditionaly when men trained for combat they are faced with the reality of death on the battlefield. The idea of getting hurt in practice is nothing compared to getting killed in battle. So they trained much harder and were more willing to take risks in training so they may survive in battle. I don't know if any of us have trained for combat on horseback. That would have been a key element to a mideval knights training. The risks go much higher. Consider the tournaments... getting thrown from a horse was common. Death from accidents in tornaments was common.

Now I will turn my attention to weight training injuries since you mentioned the other thread. Weight training in contrast to fighting is very controlled. The various lifts are perfromed in a manner that follows the natural motion of the body. There is not outside intervention. Contrast this to sparring where you may twist or be twisted in any direction. The point of weight training is to stess the muscle. Not the joint or the tendon. To do this I think it is best to think in terms of straight lines and right angles (90 degrees). When I bench for example, I will place my arms so that when the bar hits my chest my elbows are at 90 degree angle. The same when I squat. I position my feet so that when I sqaut down my knees form a 90 degree angle and my back is errect. This will stress the muscle. The significance of this is that the muscle has large blood vessels that supply it with oxygen and nutrients. If hurt muscle recovers more quickly then tendons. The tendons and ligiments do not have the same direct supply nutriants and oxygen as muscles do. Tendons are hard to damage and likewise when they do get damaged are slow to heal. In many cases they do not and require surgery.

When you use proper techinque, placing the stress on the muscles rather then the tendons and ligaments, the muscle will give out long before the tendons do and your spotter can help you. The tendon by nature are much tougher then muscle.

Also consider that strong muscles can go a long way to prevent injury. Take for example the shoulder joint. The armbone (humerus) is held connected to only two bones in you shoulder. The scapula on the back side and small clavical on the front. The muscles of your chest, back, shoulder help keep it in place and protect the joint. The stronger those muscles the more protected that joint will be. Same goes for the all important hip joint. It is almost completly coverd by muscles. Now consider the spine. On an untrained people you can see the spine bones sticking out of their back through the skin. If you strike this person on the back with a wooden waster you will impact the bone directly. It is sticking right out after all. Now walk into a gym and look at the spines of those guys. Not the bodybuilding monsters, but the average guy that trains. You will notice that the spine bones are not visible. You will instead see two muscles running down on either side of the spine like two pipes. If you strike this person over the spine with the wooden waster you will not impact the bone directly. You will hit the two muscles. Yeah, it will hurt, but there is less chance of a crippling injury. The bones of the body will also get denser with weight training. To quote one orthopedic doctor I met in the gym, "bones love stress".

This is all well and good provided you don't have a pre-existing injury. Then all bets are off. You can do more damage by training hard if you are already injured. The natural mechanics of the body do not apply to you and you should consult a physical therapist. If the joint is not working properly in the first place, training will not improve it.

I put some pictures up on my webpage so you can see what I mean by right angles in weight training. Observe the angles of my elbows and knees as I take the stress off the joints and place it on the muscle where it belongs.

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/workout.htm

Let me know if I can be more clear on anything.

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ElizabethPangerl
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby ElizabethPangerl » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:19 am

I had no doubt people had overcome far more serious injury (inherent in many activities) and I wanted to learn from their experiences. The last thing anyone wants to do in a fight is have to worry that part of their body can't be trusted - that's what training is for. Training HOW was my question - thanks for the posts so far - and suggestions on finding a specialist in sports medicine and proper form on exercise seem particularly helpful.

I had of course continued the studying, solo drills, and even increased the weight training. I was more concerned that I'm not improving because sparring wouldn't be safe just yet and my conditioning isn't served as well by substituting light aerobics for more intense treadmill and hiking activity. I also don't want to pack on the pounds while I can't run - it would only put more stress on my knees and the fat defense doesn't work for me.
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby John_Clements » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:07 am

Well, Stacy and several others thatare quite good are like 5'6" and he' snot skinny, so I'd hardly say that's crucial.

But being 5'1 and less agile as well as without muscularity, now that's a challenge I'd hard pressed to give an answer to.
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby Bill Tsafa » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:47 am

Well i have had quite few injuries, alot have been very serious, i would say to go see an orthopedic surgeon specializing in sport's medicine, it has been my experience that all Dr. are not equal, also if you do physical therapy look at it as part of your other training and approach it just as seriously do some research on the injury and treatment ask question's.


I touched on this point as you did Jeff and I would like to expand upon it. I have learned from talking to people injured over the years that doctors tend to often be overconservitive because of all the malpractice and frivilous laws suits. They will often give you the advise that is safeest for them rather then best for you. The least risky thing for a doctor to say is don't do ANYTHING stressfull. Many people have recieved such advice. When they tell the doctor they must go back to work or they want to play a sport. The doctor will shrug his shoulders and say "I don't want to be responsible". That is why you should try to seek out a doctor who actualy works with athelets and even trains himself. If a doctor routinly works with athlets and he will understand that the whole point of the treatment is to get the athlete back to his sport as soon as posible. You can expect to pay more for these specialists. There is a Chiropracter in my gym who is a competitive powerlifter. I never needed his services, but if I ever had any injury i would talk to him because I know he won't just give me the advise that is safest for him but will understand that I want his help to get back to my activites.

Sorry I could not be more helpful in offering some excesise that will help your knee problem. But unless it is a minor case of tendinitus or just common cracking, you really need professional help on that.

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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:56 am

You might want to see a physical therapist for your knee. When I was lifting weights (way back in 1991!) I damaged my rotator cuff (the iron god exacts his price). Some time with a physical therapist did more for my subsequent recovery that time with regular doctors who had the "do nothing, take pills and sit on your posterior" approach.

In terms of future knee maintance, do not ever again do any repeated impact type exercises that hits your knees. No running, jogging or treadmill. RMA footwork excepted, of course, but look for softer surfaces (grass, a wrestling mat, etc. as opposed to concrete) for long footwork sessions. Look at swimming or the eliptical runner so you can do your lungs without joint damage.

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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby Seppel Bellot » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:17 am

Elizabeth: your question is good but also little vague. What weapons are you training for? Besides going to the gym and "fighting," do you do any other type of training with the sword, such as footwork drills, floryshes, cutting practice?

I'm asking this because this can make a huge difference in whether or not one develops injuries. My background is in sport fencing but I think this applies to most disciplines. The more correctly one develops his skills, the less likely he is to pop a knee or an elbow, just like in any other sport... well, with a few exceptions such as tennis or wrestling.

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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby JeffGentry » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:48 pm

Hey Elizabeth

From what you said this bursitus, which from my understanding is usualy from over use/repetitive action so running or long walk's are off the table, you might try traaining for shorter period's more often, in what we do the leg's are an important part of it so any injuryt o the leg's realy limit's how we can train.

Jeff
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ElizabethPangerl
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Re: Add'l training considerations - injuries, size

Postby ElizabethPangerl » Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:17 am

Sorry, this is the first thread I've started on a forum, so my intentions might not have been as clear as they could be. The point was to share stories of how people have trained through and overcome circumstances that might otherwise be perceived as disadvantages.

I am a beginner who got injured through circumstances not directly related to our realm of study, and I also am rather short in stature. The injury was affecting my conditioning and inhibiting sparring, thereby slowing the rate at which I might have developed skills like agility. However, I can still read and I have developed some degree of muscularity - apparently to a degree clothing designers believe disproportionate to my size, because I have to go two sizes up to get my shoulders and arms into a shirt, and then it hangs to my knees and pants are always fitting poorly in either the legs or the waist.

At any rate, I am slightly frustrated because the injury is slowing down the rate at which I intended to improve and I thought it would do me good to read about how others have overcome injuries or other odd considerations such as size, etc. Those are just two circumstances that came to mind, but I'm sure there are others.
Elizabeth Pangerl

ARMA - Twin Cities (Minnesota)


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