Who are YOU training to fight?

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david welch
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Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby david welch » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:55 pm

Every so often, John Clements will ask are you training like you are getting ready for a fight, and if you are not, why not?

Personally, I think it is very important to train like that. But to me, just as important is who I am training to fight. It is all part of the "core assumptions" we bring with us. Often, when people talk about "fighting" it invariably lead to the "drunk uncle" scenario. I think before you have to worry about being able to tone it down so you don't hurt someone when you just need to control them, first you have to train to bring it on so you have something to tone down.

A friend posted this on another forum a long time ago, and this is who I visualize when I train... whether I am at the range, working with a knife, or sword work at a pell. Scary part? Todd is based off of a real person.

Give this guy a sword, and think about him when you do your eight cut drill!


http://totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1235

That long thread about Aikido got me thinking about the assumptions that we make about our potential opponents when we enter into any kind of "self-defense" training. I suppose that virtually any martial art or fighting system will work if your opponent is a moron, but how does it fare when you have to go up against the rare "black swan" event---the perfect storm opponent situation?

Since you cannot control who you will run into, maybe it is prudent to create a template for a worst case opponent and assume that is who you will have to face in a fight for your life? Let's call him "Todd."

Physical fitness? Discipline? Motivation? Todd is a former Division I-level athlete. He benches over 350 and runs an all-out quarter-mile in just over 50 seconds. Todd spends his mornings pounding out miles of hard roadwork, pumps iron like a maniac in lieu of eating lunch, and spends his evenings dry-firing his EDC handgun, studying ways to hurt people, and beating the hell out of his Spar-Pro and heavy bag. He maintains an extensive library of books and videos on combat and survival-related topics.

He goes to bed tired but satisfied every night, satisfied because he has no other hobbies and because he looks at training as money in the bank---he will cash in his full paycheck on the fateful day that he faces you in a fight.

Todd spends his weekends doing strenuous physical activities and competing in IPSC Limited or IDPA matches. He spends his vacations going to places like Crucible, the Rogers Academy, and BSR. Todd has no other hobbies and he is not really concerned with being a "weird, paranoid freak" in the eyes of many normal people. Todd does not really hang out with "normal" people, anyway---he prefers to hang out with people like himself.

Warning of an attack? Deception? Good luck trying any Jedi mind tricks on Todd: he studies NLP and evolutionary psychology. Todd does not dress like some kind of thug, either: he knows that a clean-cut appearance increases his time/distance window of opportunity to ambush his prey. Pay very close attention to Todd's choice of boots, belt, and watch---they may be the only warnings that you get.

Todd knows that anonymity is the most important weapon in his formidable arsenal. He does not threaten, he does not warn, he does not talk [censored] or insult---those things take time and telegraph intentions. Todd just makes a binary decision and then acts.

Training? Background? Todd trains in the most effective fighting and survival techniques that he can. He is open-minded and non-judgmental, caring only that techniques fit within an overarching framework of logic and ruthless pragmatism. He lives his whole life this way---it is his structure, his discipline, his religion. Todd may have a black belt from Rickson Gracie, may have been a Golden Gloves boxer or a freestyle wrestler or a linebacker, may have trained in the famous Muay Thai gyms of Holland, maybe a student of WWII Combatives or battlefield jiu-jitsu methods. Maybe---and now the plot gets chilling (as Marcus Wynne describes in his books)---Todd has been the recipient of millions of dollars in government-sponsored training...money that was specifically spent to turn him into some kind of professional shadow-warrior badass, like John Macejunas or Kelly McCann.

Maybe Todd is all of the above: operator, martial artist, fighter, contact-sport athlete.

It does not really matter where he got his start, because he has synthesized his approach into a combination of very destructive, attack-oriented techniques that he can perform with maximal effort without much fear of hurting himself in the process. He can strike and he can grapple, and most importantly he always tries to hit first.

Weapons? Equipment? This is the best part: trying to beat Todd in an unarmed fight is largely an academic exercise, because you will never, ever catch Todd unarmed. He carries a Glock or 1911, Fox OC spray, and a fixed-blade with him CCW every single day of his life. Todd is not interested in hitting you with his hands or feet---given even the slightest provocation, his opening gambit will be to present his handgun from the holster and to demand that you remain very still and quiet. If you then try to disarm Todd, strike Todd, or reach for your own weapon to attack Todd, Todd will not hesitate to shoot until slide lock.

Todd also trains in ways to use his knife to great effect---maybe pikal, maybe more of a Kni-Com technique, maybe both. Names like James Keating and the Dog Brothers are very familiar to Todd.

Todd will run you over with his SUV if you give him reason to. If you are more of a distant problem, he keeps an M4 or a DSA FAL in a Pelican case in the trunk, next to his trauma med kit and bugout ruck.

Forget trying to get to Todd at home: his place is like a fortress, complete with crazy locks (Todd studies B&E, too), a large dog, and the ubiquitous Scattergun Technologies 12-gauge with Sure-Fire light.

Remember that Todd likes to move first---his first move is to draw a weapon on you. Todd is not stupid. This isn't Bloodsport or a Sho Kosugi film. Todd wants to win...period.

Todd sounds like a nightmare, doesn't he? Well, let's all take heart---while we cannot control whether or not we will ever have to face a Todd, we CAN control our own training and preparation. We can become "Todds" (!). Many of you probably consciously found similarities between your own lifestyles and habits and the ones that were described above. I think the idea is to imagine the most ferocious and skilled opponent that you could face in a nightmare, then try to become that person (within whatever constraints that you face). If you are not willing to become a Todd, then you need to ask yourself who it is that you believe you are training to face.

We can become the "worst-case scenario" for someone else to have to deal with. I believe that these forums are about this...the mindset, the techniques, the equipment. There has been a lot of heated debate lately on various subtopics beneath the mantle of self-defense, but we are all students (no one has all the answers) and we are share far more similarities than we do differences. I don't believe that anyone here is interested in promulgating some kind of massive mind-meld---dissenting opinions are what fuels progress and interesting debate


Do you think that 500 years ago, "Todd" would have been a fight master or a knight?

David Welch
ARMA East Tennessee
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Aaron Pynenberg
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:08 am

Dave, I have to be honest here, I think that while Todd is a badass, I am not really thinking that way when i train in these combat arts.

I am also a "professional" and I get paid to go to advanced fighting schools, I shoot numerous weapons for a living and use them in all sorts of tactical sits etc...I know just about all the techniques and schools of thought mentioned, and while it's all very impressive does not really "scare" me into training in these arts.

What does really get me motivated to train is this:
I am fairly new to the entire field of study, about 3 years ago I had no idea that ARMA even existed- when I did find it, and as I continue to grow my knowledge base I center on what would it have been like for them? What was thier training like, how intense was it? What did they think about during thier training? etc...being late in finding ARMA and being that we know so little about how they trained etc.(even though we know quite a bit and expanding) I still envision my historical counterpart and what the level of skill this individual would have displayed-

In other words I am always trying to be "better" than what I imagine they might have been like- if that makes sense. If I am confronted with a "Todd" then I will know what to do...fight and survive....it's the historical equivelant that is the challenge to me, as tuff as "Todd" is I see historical fighters as even more bad---because they dealt with death much more than 'Todd" does-- my thoughts Aaron P.
"Because I Like It"

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JeanryChandler
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby JeanryChandler » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:32 am

Todd sounds impressive, (and impressively crazy!) but I'm not thinking about a guy like that either. I've been in too many real fights and dangerous encounters, everything from bar brawls to attempted muggings and gang fights, to really have to invent a specific scary enemy like that. I've learned from experience, don't spend to much time underestimating or overestimating the other guy, it could be friggen shirley temple or the Sasquatch, you have to be ready for anything and willing to go balls out and handle your business right NOW because you really never know what the other guy is going to do (or when, or how often, or for how long...). That much I think is echoed in the fechbtbuchs... don't think too much about your enemy, open yourself up to attacking and taking them out.

A few truly scary memories do come to mind... a Nazi skinhead in Phoenix, Arizona, a Biker from The Mongols in San Diego... a crazy homicide detective in a greasy spoon restauraunt in New Orleans, a psychotic would be mugger in the 9th ward, also in New Orleans....

and without a doubt there were quite a few really scary people back in "the day" who would probably be far worse than Todd equivalents who would no doubt wipe me off the face of the earth. Cesare Borgia, Hernando Cortez, Bohemond I, Charles Martel, Ragnar Lodbrok, Egil Skallgrimmson (and any number of Vikings) just to name a few... yeah there were some scary folks around in them days, and no M1911 to take them out nice and quick either.

Bottom line when training, paranoid as I am, all I have to do is quit telling myself everything is ok for a few minutes, unshackle the memories and the imagination for a moment, and my hair stands up on end all by itsself <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Jr
"We can't all be saints"
John Dillinger

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TimSheetz
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby TimSheetz » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:20 am

Well Dave,

I liked the quote. Todd seems like someone who I wouldn't want to hang out with but who I would want to be passing by when the guys mugging me offend him.

What motivates me a bit is a quote from Hoch Hocheim's magazine that said:

RIGHT NOW someone is training to KILL YOU. What are YOU DOING?

I like that and it is something worth noting (but not stressing over).

Peace,

Tim
Tim Sheetz
ARMA SFS

david welch
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby david welch » Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:04 am

Hi, guys!

I don't have much time this morning, but I want to hit a couple of things...

Todd isn't to scare you into training. Todd is to give you a filter to run your training through. If you train to fight the 1%, the other 99% is taken care of... and Todd falls into the 1%.

Also, it helps me decide if I amm training effectively.

Tim, I love the Hoch Hocheim quote. It is a standard around here. That is another reason we use Todd. When we think:

"RIGHT NOW someone is training to KILL YOU. What are YOU DOING?"

we also think, if the guy training to kill us is Todd... is what we are doing going to be effective? If you knew Todd was training for you, and would be coming for you in a couple of months, what would you be spending your training time working on? Would you be training different than you are now? If so... why are you training like you are now?

Traveling around to learn the most effective techniques, preemptive striking, overwhelming response... Todd sounds to me just like some of the early fight masters.

David Welch
ARMA East Tennessee
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Filip Pobran
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby Filip Pobran » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:10 pm

when i train, i think only about me. i am very egoistic <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> i am not military personell. i am not an athlet. i only follow renaissance way of thinking what the ideal person is. mediocrity. i adore renaissance and baroque - the most of my friends think of me being born in a wrong time. so, i read, write, play, learn, doing "light" sports, wield a sword and i'm polite. i am not expert in all those things, but i am enough good (don't know why is mediocrity bad at all...)

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Randall Pleasant
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby Randall Pleasant » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:07 pm

Tim Sheetz

I'M TRAINING FOR YOU! <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I know you'll lose sleep. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Ran Pleasant

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SzabolcsWaldmann
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby SzabolcsWaldmann » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:16 am

http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm

I Like these part most:
"In order to understand what "self-defense" is, you must first understand what it is not. "Self-defense" is not martial arts training. Nor is it fighting. It is not simply mastering a set of physical skills (e.g. becoming a kung fu killer ninja or combat shooting expert). It is not getting in touch with your inner rage and channeling it into attacking someone. Nor is it something you can take a weekend seminar for and then forget until you need it. "

And

"Let me start by saying that if you are obsessed with the idea of being attacked, involved in a fight, raped or are morbidly fascinated with violence, you have problems. These problems come in two basic flavors: real and imagined.
If you are in a situation where crime and violence are legitimate and daily threats (e.g., you live in or near a area populated by dangerous people) you have a different set of problems than someone who is fixating on the idea of violence. In the former case, the problems are real, not imagined. There does exist a legitimate probability of attack. As such, being concerned is just plain commonsense.
Unfortunately, no amount of training in a streetfighting system will ultimately save you. What looks like a logical strategy of learning how to win in such conflicts is a strategic error. One that will do nothing in the long term for reducing the danger. It will, in fact, increase it. The reason is, despite focusing on "winning," you're still in the line of fire. You are still there! And with training, usually more so! Because training often results in you not getting out of the way when you should. Instead of beating feet you attempt to stand and fight. This strategy proves itself to be flawed when you know this unalterable fact: Sooner or later, everyone goes down in the street, no matter how good you are. Winning against these overwhelming odds is like gambling in Vegas, eventually the odds catch up and the house wins. There are just too many criminals and violent people in those areas for you to always win. You have to be lucky or good every time; they only have to be lucky once. Sooner or later, everyone's luck runs out."

Whaddoya think?
<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Szab
Order of the Sword Hungary

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TimSheetz
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby TimSheetz » Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:12 am

My views on running.....

If you don't plan on vacating a fight area first, unless duty calls you to be there, or civic responsibility or the protection of a loved one, then I must say that you are an idiot.

The more I study knives and swords, the better I am with them, and the more I know that the level of commitment required to kill with them, and since when I push the "GO" button there will be many serious consequences, the more I feel that running and evading is the best recourse.

The MIND is the best defence. I have not been a hardly any fights. Why? cause I am not dumb and avoid thos situations before they get out of hand. Being in many fights outside the line of duty is a bad sign to me.

Peace,

Tim
Tim Sheetz

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david welch
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby david welch » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:09 am

First, what Tim said. I agree 100%

Second, while your first lines of defense should be awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation, that still doesn't relieve you of the responsability of protecting yourself or others in your care if these don't work.

Third, I think for the most part we talk about the combat art part of it here and don't really apply the "self defense" aspects to it. And while a lot of it will work for the fighting back part of SD if you find yourself in a SHTF situation there is a lot not covered for that and you need to find that information elsewhere.

Fourth, LOL! You get your self defense info from Mark Macyoung? Mr. "There I was, in a BULLWHIP FIGHT one time..." Mark Macyoung? LOL
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Filip Pobran
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby Filip Pobran » Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:52 pm

now it is more important that martial ART is ART, not a way of self defence. (i usualy don't carry a sword around with me)



yes, you can use some elements in self defence... but you can use your knowledge of physics and politics also <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Lorraine Munoa
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby Lorraine Munoa » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:59 pm

The best fight is the one that doesn't start, granted, but I sure hope you don't mean to look at Martial Arts as only arts.
I suppose I feel that if you aren't learning them in part for some defense, and if they are not applicable in those rare but dangerous situations, why are you learning?
"In a fair fight, I would have beaten you!"
"Not much incentive for me to fight 'fair' is it?"

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Ray_McCullough
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby Ray_McCullough » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:52 am

To me training is entertainment. I use to think I was preparing for when something did happen, but I realized that in reality no matter how little or how much you know if its your time its your time. My chances of a real fight are slim to none.

On the other hand, To not train seriously ,if you train, would be pointless. The potential is there to help defend yourself and family. That same potential is not there in sports.

I train in part for self defense, for art,for the knowledge of history, and for entertainment. If it wasn t a form of entertainment then the only people doing martial arts would be in the military.

I love history and the martial arts.
"The Lord is my strength and my shield. My heart trusteth in Him and I am helped.." Psalms 28:7

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James Sterrett
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby James Sterrett » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:48 pm

Do I train for self-defence? In the abstract, yes. Any martial arts training, done seriously - with Inent, to use the ARMA phrasing - provides both physical and mental conditioning for a fight.

But do I expect to use my longsword training in real life? Not directly. I don't carry a longsword. I've occasionally looked around the office or other environments for substitutes, and tend not to find any. I've got reservations about how useful it is in confined spaces, in any event.

I can't help but agree with those who say it's better to avoid trouble in the first place. Am I terribly confident of my chances if I should fail? Nope. But I'm a little more confident of putting up a decent fight with the training than without it.


Plus, while "Todd" is awesomely well trained, he's still probably pretty easy for a team to take down if they wanted (I hassle him on the street in a spot we've reconned previously. He gets hassled enough to get him to stop and draw his gun. Now he's stopped, pointing it at me. I am compliant, but slow - and my teammates blow him away. Or we use IED(s), RPGs, etc. One way or another, he is alone, and has weaknesses we can exploit.) Upshot: even stupendous levels of training aren't necessarily going to save you.


Edit:

After discussing this with Corinne, it occured to us that the attitude in the above paragraph is essentially turning Todd from a threat into a target. In many ways, an attitude of: If Todd is going to kill us in 3 months, we will go kill him now. (Do we personally have the knowledge and skills to do that? Ah... No. Can we get them in 2 weeks? Maybe....? <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I'd like to think that the attitude of attacking first would get a nod of approval from our various medieval fencing masters. Though they'd doubtless be appalled at most of my poor execution of their teachings. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Jake_Norwood
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Re: Who are YOU training to fight?

Postby Jake_Norwood » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:34 pm

Reminds me...

John C was once asked "why do you practice?"

He replied, "to get better."

"Why do you want to get better?"

"To enjoy my practice more fully."



Me, I'm mostly with Ray on this one. Mostly.

Who am I training to fight? Tim Sheetz, John C., anybody that walks into practice...perhaps all at once. I'm training to fight myself.

Oooh...that was deep...

The rest of the time I'm training to fight Insurgents, Takfiris, Jihadists and the like...

And for them I train to fight from afar.

Jake
Sen. Free Scholar
ARMA Deputy Director


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