How much training?

[Todd Eriksen]

I bounced this off of Aaron Pynenberg, so thought I should broaden the subject in the forum and get other great educated theories. Let's say that I live in the 14th Century and am a nobleman, trained all my life and am now fighting in France for England in the 100 Years War. When does the training stop? Would they have practiced daily, weekly, monthly, at all? Or would the rare battles be enough to keep them sharp with the training that they had when they were young? With the every day activities of the nobleman, I'm sure they wouldn't have the time to practice swordsmanship on a regular basis. What's everyone elses thoughts?

[s_taillebois]

As noted, you probably would have been concerned more with other duties. The English presence in France, did not go well during the post 1420's. And it wasn't exactly a sympathetic population (excepting the Burgundian's).
So much of your time (and effort) would have been consumed by feudal obligations (administering resources, and fiefs), operating networks of informants (Joan Pouselle wasn't the only person mobilizing the lower orders agaisnt the English), convincing (or coercing) the occupied French into providing needed resources, and etc. And running whatever passed for the secular courts in your region. (along with assistance by complaint clergy) So some sparring would have been a welcome diversion, but obligations came first. As you implied, that many of the aristocracy were as much administrators as they were warriors. Plus, as an aristocrat, you had to procure enough squirrel coats to keep your own minions happy. Plus keep enough of your henchmen, and yeomanry around to keep your liege happy. By the end of the period, the English yeomanry especially weren't too enamored of going to the wars in France. (It's one of the reasons the longbow was eventually superceded)
Plus, by the late period, what the English wanted was out...even some of Henry's successes were planned largely as a means to 'leave with honor'. So, very probably there might have also been a little psychological burnout with the war, and it's attendant implements.

[Justin Lompado]

Todd,

I think first research needs to be done to ascertain the activites undertaken by a nobleman on a regular basis, and then we can see if there was room for swordsmanship. Also, I would have to say that the lifestyle varied from person to person, as some individuals or families were of higher honor and importance than others, and even moreso from country to country. That's about all I can come up with off the top of my head right now
<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[s_taillebois]

M. Lompado quite true.
Another factor, concerning the ability of the upper aristocracy, for sparring time, was their involvement in politics back in England. During the very late period of the English/French mess, the early tensions in England were also building, and rivalries were developing, which eventually led to the wars of the roses. And in that regard, getting too martial around the wrong people and at the wrong time could have been a stupid thing to do...this was a period were nobles were executed by the crown for fairly some minor disputes or slights.

[Justin Lompado]

That makes a lot of sense. You have to be very careful of your actions, especially when there are few laws protecting you from punishment dished out by other nobles or royalty. Also, I would imagine that some nobles were in any case not concerned with martial arts at all, for that is the nature of some people. Some just might have not had any interest, and as a person of wealth, they could probably afford protection, and may have studied the most rudimentary of principles so as not to be made to look stupid around their peers, who might have known how to use the weapons they often carried for fashion or war.

[Scott Richards]

That's an excellent question; I only wish I had an equally excellent answer. One thing it points out for me is the personal need to study the day-in, day-out, ho-hum lives of people from the past. We take so much time to study the great events of the day that we lose focus of the fact that these were done by real people living real lives.

But to give a little perspective -- and something approaching an answer. I think this question is much like one that will be asked 500 years from now: "If I were a middle class American in the early 21st century, how much time would I have to exercise?" We know from living it that the asnwer to that is widly varied and depends upon the individual, and I believe that may by the same for your question. Certainly we can draw averages and conclude trends, but bottom line is it depends upon how dedicated the person in question is. Does the lord of the manor sacrifice his administrative duties to spar, or does he put those first before anything else? Does he see himself as a warrior first and a court official second? Is he basically lazy or rugged? Fun thing about history is there are always so many different answers to the same question.

Thanks for the awsome question. Now I have some research to do! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

Doesn't Vegetius say to practice at the pell for 2 hours every day? It's something like that. I know that Vegetius was popular throughout the middle ages and renaissance, and that anything that you're being told to do is more than you're doing now.

So I'd guess that 2 hours a day was what the disciplined were doing.

Jake

[s_taillebois]

Have to remember that their conception of day, was somewhat different than ours. Many of the outside activities ended at dusk. Early evening, some eating, carousing etc until about 9 p.m., then some sleeping. Than at about late evening, a minor spate of interior visitations and such...usually a result of restiveness or simply the fires going out. In some ways, what many here at ARMA might do...such as practice after work...is a result of our lighting technology. And until the industrial boom of the late medieval/Renn, clocks (be it water or spring driven) were rare. So many of the activities of the Gothic/Renn would have been cyclical in perception. Likely more pell work was done in the winter, when the hours laid heavier, than would have been done in the spring and summer when agricultural or industrial obligations took precedence. Even the fairs (and the combative brawls which took place therein) were on these kind of cycles...usually done in latesummer after the crops were available and travel was possible.
Plus, on certain saints days, or on personal penance, activity such as pellwork and such was considered appropriate.
So, M. Norwood your quite correct in that many would have practiced some hours a day. But when, and how they perceived time, was very different from our context.