How hard does one have to hit?

For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

Moderators: Webmaster, Stacy Clifford

Lance Chan
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:03 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Contact:

How hard does one have to hit?

Postby Lance Chan » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:01 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx2umUcEsE8

Recently, some of my customers have reported that my sparring swords were broken under forceful sparring. Today I've seen it first handed that a foreign customer came over to spar and broke his new sparring sword in 75 rounds. Thus I've invited him to do some test with me with real swords and made a video to investigate how hard does one have to hit in sparring to inflict effective damage. The partner that held the katana for me to show the real sword clashing effect was the customer. He participated in test cutting afterwards and has since established a new understanding of swordsmanship. I wish to share this knowledge with the community and may everybody enjoy.
Realistic Sparring Weapons
http://www.rsw.com.hk

Lance Chan
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:03 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Contact:

Postby Lance Chan » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:07 am

I would like to add that the video was concentrate on "unarmored combat" and I acknowledge the fact that slightly armored combat or fully armored combat are of totally different breeds. I just wanted to make it clear. Big cuts has a lot more value in the slightly armored combat, where the fully armored combat may break the sword upon big cut's contact, thus thrusts were used dominantly.
Realistic Sparring Weapons

http://www.rsw.com.hk

User avatar
Greg Coffman
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:33 pm
Location: Abilene

Postby Greg Coffman » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:28 am

When I strike hard, it is not because I just want to hit hard, but because I want to strike fast. A fast strike carries a lot of momentum and will necessarily hit hard. The other time I strike hard is when I am attempting to perform a beat or deflection. I need to strike with enough force for it to be effective.

Lance Chan
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:03 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Contact:

Postby Lance Chan » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:43 pm

I agree that hitting fast would also automatically be hitting hard, but it may not be true vice versa. The video was aim to those who try to did the reverse. Hitting fast is no problem. :D

BTW, there's an implied point about the sleeve cutting. A cut made in such most unnoticed, slightest way would still slit open modern mutli-layers fabric and skin. If people compare the slightest cut with those I did with "Intent" on pig arm or those in sparring, the partner at the end of the video would have his arm cut off right away. He may survive but that would probably be a good fight-ender.

That's the "implied" point of that cut. A bit violent, so I didn't state clear in the video because it was placed on youtube.

Greg Coffman wrote:When I strike hard, it is not because I just want to hit hard, but because I want to strike fast. A fast strike carries a lot of momentum and will necessarily hit hard. The other time I strike hard is when I am attempting to perform a beat or deflection. I need to strike with enough force for it to be effective.
Realistic Sparring Weapons

http://www.rsw.com.hk

User avatar
Greg Coffman
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:33 pm
Location: Abilene

Postby Greg Coffman » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:02 pm

I did enjoy the test cutting agaist more realistic medium instead of water bottles or card board. It is one thing for the public to see sharp swords cutting plastic and paper and a whole other thing for them to see swords cutting flesh and bone. It gives a much better appreciation and respect of what swords could actually do.

The guy whose sleeve was cut, was he wearing something underneath to keep the sword coming through any further or did you just cut in a very controlled manner?

Jay Vail
Posts: 558
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:35 am

Re: How hard does one have to hit?

Postby Jay Vail » Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:54 am

Lance Chan wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx2umUcEsE8

Recently, some of my customers have reported that my sparring swords were broken under forceful sparring. Today I've seen it first handed that a foreign customer came over to spar and broke his new sparring sword in 75 rounds. Thus I've invited him to do some test with me with real swords and made a video to investigate how hard does one have to hit in sparring to inflict effective damage. The partner that held the katana for me to show the real sword clashing effect was the customer. He participated in test cutting afterwards and has since established a new understanding of swordsmanship. I wish to share this knowledge with the community and may everybody enjoy.


Lance, as interesting as your video was, I have to express some degree of skepticism about your conclusion, which seems to be that a full armed cut is not necessary for sword combat. This conclusion is at odds with the textual and historical evidence of how swords were used in combat. Full armed cuts were the norm and expected. Dobringer speaks of this, among others, and there is plenty of other evidence from descriptions of wounds (legs sheared off -- two by one blow at Visby -- heads cloven away or cut in two to the collar bone). What your film depicts are at best schnitt or slices, techniques that were understood and part of the arsenal but not relied upon as the main technique. So I would be careful going down this road or you’ll end up like Kendo.

Lance Chan
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:03 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Contact:

Postby Lance Chan » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:11 am

Very controlled manner.

Greg Coffman wrote:The guy whose sleeve was cut, was he wearing something underneath to keep the sword coming through any further or did you just cut in a very controlled manner?


Jay, I don't discount full arm cuts. The examples you raised were from battlefield where combatants were at least slightly armored. I agree that such circumstances required hitting hard. Both techniques should be practiced for different situations, but one also have to realize why hanging guard and similar defenses work even against hard blows because metal slides extremely easily. Thus once the defense was set up, it was difficult to hit it aside by hitting the resisting blade hard. That's also why bind and wind was emphasized in such situation.

The video was aimed to the audiences with no metal-blade sparring experience. They often assume that by hitting hard on the opponent's sword, regardless of where they hit, they thought they could beat the opponent blade and create an opening.

According to my experience, it was better to go around the opponent's sword, if mine was longer, or to create an opening through bind and wind after establishing contact, which was not necessary through hitting hard. Also, to set aside opponent's blade, it's easier to do so by hitting the opponent's foible and flat side with my edge, than hitting wherever regardlessly...

I admit I didn't go into too much detail in the video since there's a time limit on youtube, and there's also an attention span limit in mankind. So I concentrated the most controversal part and let the discussion do the rest. :)
Realistic Sparring Weapons

http://www.rsw.com.hk

User avatar
John_Clements
Posts: 1167
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 10:43 pm
Location: Atlanta area

Re: How hard does one have to hit?

Postby John_Clements » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:05 pm

Having done likely more sharp steel testing on multiple material sand raw meat as most anyone out there, I will not comment, as my next book (don't ask when) has almost 200 pages of material documenting actual historical sword injuries and death in combat. What it takes to disable, debilitate, or incapacitate a human by an edge blow to their limb, surprisingly, varies considerably. But even though flesh doe snot respond well to sharp metal, one thing the evidence shows for sure (and our modern experiments confirm), you don't and can't strike softly or slowly.

JC

User avatar
Nathan Dexter
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:48 pm
Location: USA

Postby Nathan Dexter » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:04 pm

I dont have any test cutting experience, but isnt the point of sparring not to ge greiviously injured?

btw, would you have any information to leak about said book???
Nathan
Draumarnir á mik.

User avatar
Will Adamson
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:01 pm
Location: Abingdon, VA

Postby Will Adamson » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:17 pm

It's not that bad; just a few bumps and bruises. I've seen far worse in hard asian styles.

Those who are afraid of said bumps and bruises don't belong in any martial art.
"Do you know how to use that thing?"
"Yes, pointy end goes in the man."
Diego de la Vega and Alejandro Murrieta from The Mask of Zorro.

User avatar
Jason Taylor
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Orange County, Southern California

Postby Jason Taylor » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:32 pm

I've been wanting to bring up this topic for a while myself, but from a different angle. But to avoid the appearance of spamming the board, I'll keep it within the confines of this thread. :D

I had this conversation with a couple of guys in my study group this past Friday, and we were discussing the level of power used in our usual sparring.

I agree with Will that if you can't take the bumps and bruises, martial arts aren't for you. I get dinged up all the time, and I consider it a matter of course. In fact, I feel like something's wrong if I don't have a few trophies lying around my body somewhere. :) And of course, as John says, you can't hit lightly and expect to do debilitating damage. You might get lucky, of course (brachial artery, etc.), but a quick snap cut to the arm certainly isn't a guaranteed showstopper.

The one problem I notice with sparring in general is that many people seem to mistake "full intent," or, in my Kung Fu school, "full contact," for "maximum power." In my mind, these aren't the same thing. There are certainly going to be times when you don't want to "swing for the fences." Maybe you have to get to your opening quickly, and you don't have time for a full-power stroke--but I'm sure that most masters would have taken advantage of any wound they could deliver in a circumstance like this. Even if it weren't a death blow, it would be a distraction, might open up another, more decisive opening, and will cause blood loss, weakening, possibly blood to flow into the eyes (as in a light scalp cut). Note that I'm referring primarily to Blossfecten in this case, since armor changes everything.

Additionally, swinging with maximum power, as opposed to full intent, will tend to (in my experience) lower your precision.

There are a couple of problems I see with the maximum power approach. The first one, and the most important, is that in common practice, it seems to hinder good control. I notice that a lot of people who swing this way throw a Mittelhau that turns flat in the middle of the swing, much more so than during controlled waster practice. Bad edge alignment, of course, is problematic because it's bad form, but also because it's more dangerous, because the target is taking a full-force hit on the very lightly padded flat, which could cause injuries, even if minor ones (broken fingers?) I've taken full force proper edge hits on my fingers, while wearing gloves, and the foam on the sword, plus my lacrosse glove foam (it hit right in the middle of a finger pad, not in a joint) and it still smashed my finger and left me looking at the misshapen swollen thing I'm typing with now. A flat hit, I believe, would have broken it. (Seth--the swollen finger isn't your fault, BTW. You just gave me a full-intent strike. I'm using it as an example of what bad form could have done in that case.)

Further, using maximum power all the time is actually tactically disadvantagteous. It works well against novices (like myself) because they get scared of getting hurt and don't take initiative and attack or counter. Someone with more skill, I would think, would just get out of the way, and allow the overcommited strike to miss, then pick their opponent off at their leisure. My skill with voiding isn't there yet, but I know that ARMA has many members who are at this level.

Please remember that I'm certainly NOT saying that we should pull our shots or anything like that. I AM saying that we should probably learn to exercise control and strike with full intent, that is, with the amount of force needed to make that particular technique work. Some individuals (and this occurs in other arts I've seen, as well) wind up every shot for that home run blast, but that slows them down, makes them tend toward unnecessary chambering, plus leads to all the other problems I mentioned above.

I dunno. I'm just a beginner here. :) Someone with more experience might have better insight. But it does seem that most arts I've watched/practiced/read about train control , even more so than power, sometimes.

Anybody have any thoughts on the subject they'd like to throw out there :?:

Jason
I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.--The Day the Earth Stood Still

User avatar
philippewillaume
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:51 am
Location: UK, windsor
Contact:

Postby philippewillaume » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:14 am

Well I think you need to see it from two angles
What you want to achieve and what is potentially dangerous.

I really agree with JC about the cut you want to achieve.
When you strike you do not want to have any doubts about the result of your strike.
For example the way I cut is slightly less powerful and much quicker that what I understand by full arm cut. (I do not know how it relates to what is being done in arma, we may very well do the same thing and describe it differently).
Regardless if theat the way I cut is definitely much more powerful that on Lance video. (but for the record I do not think that it is what lance wanted to tell us)

To use Jonh exemple you do not need to make sure you can cut both legs every time, but you need to make sure that you opponent will not stand on the leg you hit at the very least.
So the cut we achieve need to be committed, and sometimes people use no armoured fencing to validate tap and light blow as a good strike and that is not what we should strive to achieve so I would say not it is not a good cut because it may only result on light damage and that is not, in my opinion the minimum required.

But equally, and I think it is lance point, We can not ignore hit like that on the ground that they may be good enough to do you lots of damage especially on wrist neck and throat. So I would say that brushing then of in sparing is as detrimental as acknowledging them as good strike. (Unless you are wearing a mail shirt under your doublet or a jack/aketoon/gambison, which will definitely protect against cut like that)

phil
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

User avatar
philippewillaume
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:51 am
Location: UK, windsor
Contact:

Postby philippewillaume » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:39 am

Nathan Dexter wrote:I dont have any test cutting experience, but isnt the point of sparring not to ge greiviously injured?

btw, would you have any information to leak about said book???


Hello
I do not believe that JC is advocating leathering the hell out of each other. From what I understand he is talking about intent.
How you actually hit really depend on your philosophy about sparing.
That is what you want to prioritise in the sparing and that will translate into your protection and the simulator you use.
All the point a sparing is that you can commit your strike and being confident that you will not rodger you partner senseless.

phil
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

Jay Vail
Posts: 558
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:35 am

how we strike

Postby Jay Vail » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:21 am

Here is an example of how we in FL strike. Note the von tag at the shoulder and the power and speed that results. Please reserve the howls for the bad technique to private emails, okay?

http://arma-sfl.com/workshop/fall2006/jay-vs-mike1.wmv

User avatar
Mike Cartier
Posts: 594
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 12:21 pm
Location: USA Florida

Postby Mike Cartier » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:45 am

Jay is a well known hockey mask antagonist in Florida HEMA circles :)

Lance i would also add a few things.
Firstly that beating against the sword is a very effective technique , Meyer uses it and its a great entrance to some handwork deceptions.

I don't think its possible to hit too hard frankly, as long as you maintain proper form and don't end up leaning too much, the power power generated the better. This can sometimes make the difference between a technique working or not.

I myself have noticed that when i get lots of power from an opponent it exposes any weak parries i have as they will tend to blow right through what i am trying to do, makes for better leverage in your defence i think.

Now i am not advocating excessivly battering at peoples swords, the whole change handwork is designed to combat those who attack the sword or react to it. But it has its place.
Mike Cartier
Meyer Frei Fechter
www.freifechter.com


Return to “Research and Training Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 20 guests

 
 

Note: ARMA - The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts and the ARMA logo are federally registered trademarks, copyright 2001. All rights reserved. No use of the ARMA name or emblem is permitted without authorization. Reproduction of material from this site without written permission of the authors is strictly prohibited. HACA and The Historical Armed Combat Association copyright 1999 by John Clements. All rights reserved. Contents of this site 1999 by ARMA.