Tournament Combat

[Pete Wagner]

I'm thinking about making a late medieval/early rennisance foot combat computer game, and I had a few questions. I've done alot of searching on the web, but I can't seem find a whole lot of material on longsword fighting and other types of tournament armored foot combat. If some one could answer or provide links to answer these questions, it would be greatly appreciated.
1.) What weapons were used and were there mixed weapon fights?
2.)Was stabbing allowed? (Extremly important for deciding longsword grips and such)
3.)Were grappling techniques alowed? I've read that it wasn't under "counted blows" rules, but not sure if it was under "fighting at liberty" rules.
4.) What countries held/competed in these tournaments?
-Thanks

[Shane Smith]

Hi Pete,

Please sign out and reregister with your full name as per forum rules. Thanks.

[Pete Wagner]

Oops, srry

[Jaron Bernstein]

I'm thinking about making a late medieval/early rennisance foot combat computer game, and I had a few questions. I've done alot of searching on the web, but I can't seem find a whole lot of material on longsword fighting and other types of tournament armored foot combat. If some one could answer or provide links to answer these questions, it would be greatly appreciated.
1.) What weapons were used and were there mixed weapon fights?
2.)Was stabbing allowed? (Extremly important for deciding longsword grips and such)
3.)Were grappling techniques alowed? I've read that it wasn't under "counted blows" rules, but not sure if it was under "fighting at liberty" rules.
4.) What countries held/competed in these tournaments?
-Thanks

Take a look at Talhoffer and Paulus Kal. You can get Talhoffer for free from this site (thanks to Jeff Hull ).

Jaron

[Pete Wagner]

I took a look at it but it was just a bunch of pictures of unarmored longsword. Maybe I'm missing something. I did see a bunch of thrusts but I'm still wondering, were they really allowed in tournaments? In all the modern day longsword fights I've seen, I havn't seen a thrust. I don't know, this probably isn't the right website for me to be on anyway. This seems more oriented toward actual warfare type combat whereas I'm looking for information on tournament combat.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I took a look at it but it was just a bunch of pictures of unarmored longsword. Maybe I'm missing something. I did see a bunch of thrusts but I'm still wondering, were they really allowed in tournaments? In all the modern day longsword fights I've seen, I havn't seen a thrust. I don't know, this probably isn't the right website for me to be on anyway. This seems more oriented toward actual warfare type combat whereas I'm looking for information on tournament combat.

Talhoffer and Kal have a great deal on judicial duels, both with and without armor. If you are more interested in tournaments, maybe take a look at Dr. Anglo's Martial Arts of Renn. Europe for further references.

[Jeffrey Hull]

No -- stabbing & thrusting were not part of tourney, at least no longer in the time of the fight-books. Why? Beacause it was dangerous and a man may get killed. Tourney combat was not meant to be mortal on purpose. It was not a duel, and it was not war.

Tourney had been more like small contained wars in the time of William Marshal (late 1100s to early 1200s), thus very dangerous, and held for profit of the knights involved (not for the honour of ladies or other later rationales). Those were dangerous and guys often got killed, and certainly many lost their kits and horses when they lost. They were often unapproved by authority. Tourneys seemed to have started in France & England, but soon enough, they spread throughout Europe -- Germany, Flanders, Spain, Portugal, Burgundy, etc. Some dudes make a lot of Marshal's tourney pursuits, but the overwhelming majority of his biography describes his warring pursuits, and not his sportive pursuits, as far as the combatives that he did.

By circa 1350, De Charny and others spoke of how tourney was certainly not the same as warfare. It probably had not been so for at least 50 years, if not more like 100. By his time such were approved yet regulated by authority.

By 1300 and thereafter, tourney became less and less like real warfare. For safety, they wore bloated armour and used blunted weaponry, rebatre "swords" etc. and/or club/cudgels. This was most especially true in the 15th Century and became even more sportified and performance oriented into the 16th Century. You can read how ridiculous tourney became in sources like circa 1460 tourney manual by D'Anjou.

If you look at the Talhoffer mentioned (1459), it devotes exactly 1/3 of 1% of the body of the manual to tourney -- thus one whole folio -- showing a jousting scene in bloated armour, frog-mouth helms, with coronel lances, big peytrels on the horses etc.

It does not matter what modern ren-faire dudes and stunt-performers may say otherwise about tourney, as some ultimate test of martiality, which it is not and was not. They are not basing their assertions upon the Fechtbuecher. The authors of those, the Fechtmeister, tell us otherwise.

Neither Talhoffer nor Kal gave a *blank* about tourney. They cared about teaching the knight how to fight in duel and war. At best, they would have considered tourney a fun & helpful combat sport, part of training for the other real combatives. Not a worthy pursuit in and of itself.

The only fight-book that devotes any substantial space to tourney is one by Mair, and it is in there as a sort of side-show, with portrayal of jousting in specialised armour for safety and dramatic effect. Unsurprising since that was circa 1550, when tourneys were no longer conducted in any martially valid manner.

[Pete Wagner]

Thx for the info