Finding information about historical weapons?

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Hi there, where can I find pages that talk about the geometry, weight, construction methods, proper name for, and other information about historic European melee weapons? I am wanting to find a source that I can cite when I argue that a particular feature of a fantasy or fictional weapon is implausibe as an actual weapon in any situation that, you know, has the same laws of physics with regards to mass and force and such, and similar materials science as the real world. Also places that talk about melee weapons from other cultures in the same way would be helpful. Thanks!

[Shane Smith]

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/oakesh ... ology.html

Here's a decent start.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

What about axes, polearms, hammers, daggers, etc.? If there is an essay that describes why typical fantasy weapons are physically a bad idea, I would *love* that...

[David Kite]

Well, in addition to the Oakeshott typology already suggested, there are also Oakeshott's books in general. The only one I'm aware of that deals with pole and hafted weapons is "European Weapons and Armour: From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution."

As for an essay that deals specifically with how fantasy weapons are a bad idea, I don't know of any, but the more you study the real thing, the more you'll be able to recognize stupidity on your own.

David Kite
GFS, ARMA in IN

[Jeffrey Hull]

Records of the Medieval Sword by Ewart Oakeshott is really good. There are plenty of actual artifacts in there. He may present but a few stats for each sword, but perusal of the vast number of photos and his descriptions make it crystalline clear that the swords back then differ a great deal from the stuff now.

Also two other books he co-authored: Swords of the Viking Age and The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England.

I would simply tell anyone interested in fantasy versus reality that whatever wrong ideas are translated into far too many modernly fabicated so-called swords -- like the seven pound stainless-steel "viking broadswords" seen far too often -- also get translated by the very same culprits into many of their other weapons -- pole arms, daggers, axes, whatever. It is like some willful wanton pursuit of the inauthentic by many fabricators (and I do mean "fabricators"), a decision that "what is good for the goose (swords) is good for the gander (other weaponry)".

If somebody still denies the evidence, then just inform that that they need to provide evidence to support their specious notions.

In other words, the work of a true spathalogical scholar like Oakeshott, and the collective work of fencing scholars like ARMA counts for far more than the sales-pitch of some non-fencing nutcake at a Ren-faire booth with a vested interest in selling you one his ridiculous so-called "swords".

[Shane Smith]

I have handled several period-original pole arms,maces and swords in Scotland at the wonderful Glasgow Museums as a guest of Tobias Capwell. The original poleaxe I spent the most time with was neither heavy, nor unwieldy. I didn't weight it, but I know it felt good in the hand as all good weapons do. If it feels unwieldy to you, it's probably not suitable for fighting.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Hmm...here's my amateur essay on battleaxes and war hammers:

http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/169642.html

Neither very detailed nor very scientific, I know, but I guess it's a decent summary of the issues with fantasy weapons in these categories.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Oh! by the way, if anyone wants to know why I asked this, or anyone wants to help get involved in the discussion on a forum that I started, check this thread of mine:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=955562

It's actually in the D&D 4th edition forums... I basically started the thread saying that, theoretically, fantasy weapons being unrealistic is okay, as long as it isn't taken too far... which it has been. I would like your all's thoughts about the thread if you want!

Yes, I know it is very off topic for this forum... and if you all dont want to reply here, I would be glad to talk about it in private messaging or something. Thanks!

[AlexCSmith]

The biggest problem your facing there Jonathan is that a conscious decision was made at WotC back when they converted to 3rd Ed. to move the game away from it's real world historical roots (which were thin enough already in all but the Greyhawk setting) in order to make it more culturally inclusive (or as I would say abiguous).

4th Ed. is going to continue that trend not reverse it.

Idiotic double weapons, mercury loaded greatswords, crossbow bolts that supposedly tumble like .223 rounds, and exploding katanas aren't going anywhere.

That would be why my group has switched completely to Runequest and other more realistic systems using weapon and armor lists written by myself using info from this site, other similarly reputable sites (there are but few), and my own resources (oakshotte, talhoffer, de libieri(sp), I.33, George Silver, and a few aged ones like ffoulkes).

My advice would be if you don't like what they end up publishing then change it.

[Gene Tausk]

The biggest problem your facing there Jonathan is that a conscious decision was made at WotC back when they converted to 3rd Ed. to move the game away from it's real world historical roots (which were thin enough already in all but the Greyhawk setting) in order to make it more culturally inclusive (or as I would say abiguous).

4th Ed. is going to continue that trend not reverse it.

Idiotic double weapons, mercury loaded greatswords, crossbow bolts that supposedly tumble like .223 rounds, and exploding katanas aren't going anywhere.

That would be why my group has switched completely to Runequest and other more realistic systems using weapon and armor lists written by myself using info from this site, other similarly reputable sites (there are but few), and my own resources (oakshotte, talhoffer, de libieri(sp), I.33, George Silver, and a few aged ones like ffoulkes).

My advice would be if you don't like what they end up publishing then change it.

Guys - I say this with the utmost respect...although I am a gamer myself and although many of us ARMA-ites are gamers (shoot, Jake Norwood used to make his living at this), we cannot let this get off-topic into gaming.

Jonathan - I do sympathize with the problems of inaccuracy of weapons (and armor and others too numerous to mention) in RPG's, however, because the subject deserves more respect and intelligence than what is typically given.

So, if we are going to discuss Gaming and weapons AND how it relates to WMA or historical European combat, this would be fine. But, we can't stray into gaming particulars. Alex's post is fine and incidentally, it sounds like you are on the right track to get a good system going. Good luck with that.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Okay, so what are some rules for some publicly available diced based gaming systems that maintain a respect for reality of western martial arts and medieval and renaissance melee combat, while not being overly complicated or take an incredibly long time to execute combat?

Like, do any of you have any particular d20 (or other publicly available systems) rules that respect the things learned in WMA?

Also, if that is still not a good thing to talk about here, you all can IM me on aim or yahoo at Gavinfoxx. Thanks!

Also, would it be against any intellectual property rules for you to send me some of those rules of yours? Thanks!

*edit* oh, I found the runequest SRD's... and, well, ew... there has to be a better way of doing combat than making it so unnecessarily complicated like that... looking at this, it feels "old", like it was written before certain understandings of roleplaying games really came about..

[AlexCSmith]

If you will PM me an email address I will send you an invite to my Google Group that has almost all of my weapon and armor write up on it.

Also we can continue to discuss the nuts and bolts of rpgs there.

[Jeffrey Hull]

In keeping with Gene's suggestions, I would only add that from reflecting upon my past experience at gaming (D&D, RuneQuest, ICE) that such activities are a mixed bag:

They can encourage persons who play them to study real Medieval history, but can mislead them to assume certain perniciously errouneous notions as well.

Have fun gaming guys.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Okay, so what are some rules for some publicly available diced based gaming systems that maintain a respect for reality of western martial arts and medieval and renaissance melee combat, while not being overly complicated or take an incredibly long time to execute combat?

Like, do any of you have any particular d20 (or other publicly available systems) rules that respect the things learned in WMA?

I cheat. When I DM a game, I'd use only the bare bones of the combat system--that is, the d20 to-hit roll plus base attack bonus vs. the victim's AC value--but then I provide additional modifiers by asking the player to describe how the character is executing that attack and how likely it is for the enemy to be able to find a suitable counter for it. It takes rather more bookkeeping, though, since I have to note the position and stance of every character (including the monsters) at the end of every action and extrapolate the circumstance modifiers from there.

Of course, it can only work if your roleplaying group has a substantial overlap with the membership of your martial-arts group so that every one of them (including the non-martial artists) could find the time and inclination to study the manuals. Definitely not something for every RP group but I don't think there'll be any harm done if we can spread this trend into the RPG community at large. ;p

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Could you post a "sample" fight dialogue that shows what sorts of things you are doing, and what the players are describing? I would really like to understand what you mean... maybe also with some explanations for us laypeople who wouldnt exactly understand things... I think situational modifiers for describing what you are trying to do is neat... Also, have there been any decent rewrites of D&D 3.5 weapons to be, um, more historically accurate that I could find anywhere? That would be awesome... thanks!