A plethora of European 'Heavy' Cavalry questions 1490s-1590s

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Benjamin Parker
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A plethora of European 'Heavy' Cavalry questions 1490s-1590s

Postby Benjamin Parker » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:50 pm

Here are questions that I thought up and would like to know your answers to. I'm thinking Gen 'd arme style (or a reasonable european equivalent with similar gear)

1 Is 'Heavy' the correct term?

2 What happens to a pike formation when it is hit by a cavalry charge? My theory is that the first three pikes (If the pike hasn't been outreached and the wielder hasn't already been killed by the eighteen foot lance) will be deflected up and to the side wrenching its wielder along with it and knocking the poor pikeman back as well further disrupting his formation. And that the ranks behind wont have time to level their pikes if the cavalry keeps going and thus they will be pinned

3 Which leads me to number three. When the barding hits the pike point will it be pierced? And how effective was barding from that era and how much did it weigh? Also why did barding fall out of use?

4 How many people will a lance kill before it breaks?

5 How well the Gens 'd armes perform (in a frontal charge)

6 How did the Gens 'd amres feel about a frontal charge against good unshaken infantry?

7 I've read about warhorses picking people up in their and shaking them or carrying them off. Any info/sources/citations?

BTW There's this guy I know who says that stallions were only picked as warhorses to show the riders virility (and some other nonsense about gender ideology) and that geldings did just as well (I think this is a load of you-know-what) can you give me any info/sources.citations that say otherwise?

8 What was the infantryman (specifically swiss and landsknecht) of the times opinion of the Gen 'd Arme?

9 How did Gens 'd armes solve the problem of the line coming apart when the horse charged?

10 Are there any survivng warhorse training manuals from the era?

11 Why didn't the Gens 'd armes keep their lances along with their pistol?

12 How long did it take Gen 'd arme or Gen 'd Arme like cavalry to reform and change direction? Also did their formations come apart that easily?

13 Which was the formation of preference? Wedge or En haye?

14 (This is unrelated with the other questions) IIRC I came across a mentioning in Nicephorus Phocus' work about armouring the inside of the hoof to protect it from caltrops. Any ideas on how that would look/perform?
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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:01 am

You do realize that as niche as RMA is; cavalry combat is even more niche, don't you? On the hammaborg.de videos I saw an similar link to what looked like horse fighting. You might want to check there.

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:14 am

As for your questions; to the best of my ability...

1. no clue

2. One thing I think you're forgetting is that there will be a few horses flailing around with pikes in their flanks. Wounded animals are dangerous in themselves, much more so when they have a stick to flail around. Besides that I don't see your theory working with a professional unit. They would simply back up and reform, or slide the shaft back to make it more usable.\

3.that depends on force and angle of impact. They used it so it must have been worth it. It couldn't weigh too much, probably the same a a full suit of plate, but it's on a larger animal. Why did armor fall out of use?

4. Are they wearing armor? do they get stuck on the lance? This is a poorly worded question.

5. Don't know (DN)
6. DN

7. I'd imagine whatever they bit would be ripped before that happened, and the bitee wouldn't be happy.

8. Conversely, I've heard that mares were the prefered mount b/c they would be less likely to whiney when approaching a member of the opposite sex, and give away your position. No facts on it though.

9.DN

10. Many of the manuals include horse sections. No one talks about them though b/c it's outside their scope of practice.

11.DN
12.DN
13.DN
14. DN

Jonathan Newhall
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Postby Jonathan Newhall » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:56 pm

As best as I can:

1. Heavy refers to role or physical weight in terms of tanks, I assume it evolved from the cavalry terminology (after all, tank divisions are "mounted" and "cavalry" divisions, as are mechanised infantry). If they were the most heavily armored and armed of all combatants in terms of horsemen, then yes, heavy would be appropriate.


2 Assuming the horse doesn't refuse to charge the formation (always a possibility in the best trained horses) frontally speaking the pike formation will simply outrange the riders (lances are big, but pikes were often bigger) and skewer the animals they ride upon. Once they are horseless and buried under a pile of dead horses the former horsemen would be in deep trouble.


3 It is about as likely to be pierced as is a suit a plate. If it hits a joint, it goes through. If it doesn't hit a joint, it MAY go through (if the pike doesn't break, and it isn't displaced [i.e. is held in place or braced against the ground], then it will likely penetrate the plate). It fell out of use for the same reason most armor did: costs were not worth it against the mass production of firearms.

4 Subjective, depends on the lance and the target as well as the manner of killing. They were sometimes discarded after the initial charge, or sometimes kept for as many as three or more subsequent charges and even dismounted.

5 No idea.

6 The same way most cavalrymen did, I suspect. It's either "we can do it" or "forget that" depending on the type of infantry.

7 Picking them up? More likely they were thrown in the air from being rammed by a 500 pound horse covered in 100 pounds of plate armor hurtling at them going 30 miles an hour. If not that, they would've been trampled. Those are the only real effective means for a horse to kill people - charge and smash (possibly lifting them in the air as a result of them being knocked off their feet), or trample.


8 Afraid I'm not exactly certain, but given they were from around the 15th and early 16th centuries, I'd guess that the pike square with arquebus/other firelock support would be increasingly common.

9 Not sure what you mean here.

10 Yes, but they are not generally practiced. High gothic foot fighting is expensive enough, much less to add the horse (plus it's a very difficult factor to train with an animal. There's a high chance it would be hurt while training = problems, plus the expense, et c.)

11 Dunno.

12 Most cavalry could reform fairly quickly on the order of a few seconds once the order was given, and employing a more circular formation they could change direction fairly rapidly.

13 Dunno.

14 Probably like a horseshoe but with a solid part where the empty bit is, maybe with some studs for gripping.

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Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:58 am

Benjamin Parker wrote:1 Is 'Heavy' the correct term?


Depending on what you mean by "correct." The late-medieval and Renaissance Europeans themselves certainly regarded men-at-arms (and the Lancers descended from them) as "heavy" cavalry in comparison to other types like coutiliers, "archers," Border Prickers, and the like.


2 What happens to a pike formation when it is hit by a cavalry charge?


It varies. The horses (or horsemen) could balk and veer away before contact; or they could stop just within range and "fence" with their lances against the pikemen (some lances, particularly Italian ones, were long enough to do this, though the accounts of the Italian Wars don't seem to show this technique as being a very effective one); or the horsemen might have enough momentum to push on and force the pikemen to part aside, giving at least some of the horsemen room to enter and try to split the formation. Sometimes this worked; sometimes, like at Nancy, the horsemen just got surrounded, dragged off their horses, and whacked silly by the men in the middle of the pike formation.


3 Which leads me to number three. When the barding hits the pike point will it be pierced?


Most likely not, unless the point enters a joint or an area covered only with mail. After all, there had to be a reason why late 15th and early 16th-century French gendarmes were braver than most other cavalry when it came to attacking both opposing cavalry and pike-based infantry formation, and their effective armor for both man and horse was almost certainly part of the reason.


And how effective was barding from that era and how much did it weigh?


Varies according to coverage (frontal or full) and balance between plate, mail, and cloth--especially since some men apparently used cloth caparisons to hide how much (or how little) metal the horses had underneath.

Also why did barding fall out of use?


It's a combination of factors. On one hand, armor grew heavier to protect against the increasing power of firearms, and heavier armor had worse impact on the horse than upon the man. Moreover, the increase in the weight of the man's armor meant that the horse's armor had to be reduced somewhat if the rider didn't want to lame an expensive warhorse in every battle (due to the exhaustion engendered by the weight of the armor).


4 How many people will a lance kill before it breaks?


There's no single correct number; however, late 15th-century lances were apparently made to break upon a good hit in order to prevent the rider from being knocked off the saddle, and there was a paradigm whereby a man-at-arms was considered a coward if he returned with an unbroken lance, so it's quite likely that a lance was regarded as a one-strike weapon--though the one strike it could make would have been a really spectacular strike indeed.


5 How well the Gens 'd armes perform (in a frontal charge)


Whose gendarmes and against whom?


6 How did the Gens 'd amres feel about a frontal charge against good unshaken infantry?


Once again, it depends on which gendarmes. The French would probably try, but--like others of their time--they would have vastly preferred charging against an infantry formation's flanks or corners. After all, 16th-century grand tactical paradigms was based on the Neoclassical (or neo-Macedonian) idea that the heavy cavalry's role was to sweep the opposing cavalry off the field and then descend upon the enemy's infantry denuded flank, so it's probably a mistake to dwell too much on frontal interactions. It's also worth noting that early 16th-century infantry formations tended to be squarish in form (i.e. very deep, often as deep as they were wide), and this probably had something to do with the (largely correct) belief that infantry had to be able to mount at least a limited defense against the most dangerous cavalry threat from the flank.


7 I've read about warhorses picking people up in their and shaking them or carrying them off. Any info/sources/citations?


None that I've ever seen.


BTW There's this guy I know who says that stallions were only picked as warhorses to show the riders virility (and some other nonsense about gender ideology) and that geldings did just as well (I think this is a load of you-know-what) can you give me any info/sources.citations that say otherwise?


Well, the medieval Europeans certainly preferred stallions--a preference that lasted until at least the 17th century in places. Geldings would have been easier to control, true, but their aggressive and competitive instincts aren't quite as strong as proper stallions with balls. Of course, it wasn't always possible to follow this preference in practice, so geldings and mares saw some use as well.


8 What was the infantryman (specifically swiss and landsknecht) of the times opinion of the Gen 'd Arme?


Nice to have when they're on your side. A bother when they're on the enemy's.


9 How did Gens 'd armes solve the problem of the line coming apart when the horse charged?


Probably by the age-old method of restricting the distance from which they could begin their charges. When this was not done, we have a pretty clear account from La Noue that the line did break apart, with the braver ones going headlong while the less brave hung back or even turned around.


10 Are there any survivng warhorse training manuals from the era?


Maybe Wallhausen's earliest works? These would have come from the very end of the period under discussion, though.


11 Why didn't the Gens 'd armes keep their lances along with their pistol?


They did. The mid-16th century gendarme was armed with a lance, plus a pistol for emergencies. Pistol-armed shock cavalry formed a different category that would later be formalized under the name "Cuirassiers."


12 How long did it take Gen 'd arme or Gen 'd Arme like cavalry to reform and change direction?


They probably just couldn't (and didn't) once the charge was sounded. Before that, though, it'd largely depend on the size of the formation. The fastest ones would be the well-trained units that had fairly small sub-units and fairly large numbers of competent small-unit leaders.


Also did their formations come apart that easily?


Again, this depended on training, discipline, and experience. Even the French had both elite and crap gendarmes.


13 Which was the formation of preference? Wedge or En haye?


For whom? And within what timeframe? If it's the French again, their lances appeared to have preferred the shallow en haye line up until the Wars of Religion or so, but experience in that war led to a gradual shift to pistol-armed cuirassiers operating in deep German-style formations.


14 (This is unrelated with the other questions) IIRC I came across a mentioning in Nicephorus Phocus' work about armouring the inside of the hoof to protect it from caltrops. Any ideas on how that would look/perform?


Hmm...I didn't recall reading that in the Praecepta Militaria. Any reference to which chapter and which section?

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Benjamin Abbott
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Postby Benjamin Abbott » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:53 pm

After all, there had to be a reason why late 15th and early 16th-century French gendarmes were braver than most other cavalry when it came to attacking both opposing cavalry and pike-based infantry formation, and their effective armor for both man and horse was almost certainly part of the reason.


Yeah. The sixteenth-century sources tend to regard the armored horseman as immune to anything short of firearms. Fourquevaux mentioned this explicitly, though he also implied that bows, crossbows, and certain polearms might wound an armored man under certain circumstances. Writing at the end of the period, De la Noue flatly stated that even the couched lance can't pierce armor.

There's no single correct number; however, late 15th-century lances were apparently made to break upon a good hit in order to prevent the rider from being knocked off the saddle, and there was a paradigm whereby a man-at-arms was considered a coward if he returned with an unbroken lance, so it's quite likely that a lance was regarded as a one-strike weapon--though the one strike it could make would have been a really spectacular strike indeed.


Yes. De la Noue, at least, regarded the lance as a single-use weapon. In other contexts, however, that wasn't the case. Light and medium cavalry certainly gave repeated lance thrusts, especially against infantry. I doubt the Spanish would have done so well in the Americas if their lances had failed them after the first strike.

Nice to have when they're on your side. A bother when they're on the enemy's.


Well, the Swiss supposedly called French cavalry "hares in armor."

steve hick
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Postby steve hick » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:38 am

Benjamin Abbott wrote:
SNIP, SNIP

Yes. De la Noue, at least, regarded the lance as a single-use weapon. In other contexts, however, that wasn't the case. Light and medium cavalry certainly gave repeated lance thrusts, especially against infantry. I doubt the Spanish would have done so well in the Americas if their lances had failed them after the first strike.



The America experience AFAIF was based on la gineta, whereas heavy lancers are la brida. Different, the former is most likely derived from lighter Anaalusian horseman. Although there is bleed over, Dom Duarte recommends riding short(er) in 1430. Also, if I remember correctly by the mid16th they were also using guns, I have to check Chacon.

Steve

LafayetteCCurtis
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Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:08 am

Benjamin Abbott wrote:
There's no single correct number; however, late 15th-century lances were apparently made to break upon a good hit in order to prevent the rider from being knocked off the saddle, and there was a paradigm whereby a man-at-arms was considered a coward if he returned with an unbroken lance, so it's quite likely that a lance was regarded as a one-strike weapon--though the one strike it could make would have been a really spectacular strike indeed.


Yes. De la Noue, at least, regarded the lance as a single-use weapon. In other contexts, however, that wasn't the case. Light and medium cavalry certainly gave repeated lance thrusts, especially against infantry. I doubt the Spanish would have done so well in the Americas if their lances had failed them after the first strike.


I didn't mention that because the original question was specifically about heavy cavalry; after all, the construction of the lance borne by lighter (especially Southern European) cavalry were often dramatically different from those carried by stereotypical French/Burgundian gendarmes.


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