Armor question

[Eli Freysson]

Yes, it's Mister Ignorant Novelist Guy looking for more advice. Just think of it as a chance to flaunt your knowledge.

I have a character who lives in a place and situation where he can expect to fight for his life at a moment's notice, and while he's not a man of means I want him to have SOME level of protection.
What kind of lightweight armor could I have him wear on a daily basis? Something that doesn't chafe horribly or restrict movement. I'm thinking of leather or hide or something other than metal, since he often needs to move about quietly.

[Sal Bertucci]

I would actually go with chain mail worn under his shirt. Assuming it's relativly cold outside.

[Greg Coffman]

Is there such thing as leather or hide armor during the medieval or renaissance period? I'm not aware of it.

Most people during this time who match your description of needing to be able to fight at a moment's notice didn't wear armor. Plenty of professional soldiers didn't wear armor on the battlefield even. Warm clothes worn during the harsh winters and mild summers in Europe actually provided reasonable protection against incidental and light cuts. That's why thrusting daggers were more popular and useful than cutting knives for fighting. Unless of course your cutting knife is the size of a bowie knife or bigger like the German messer was.

But people who wanted to go about armored casually wore a light mail shirt under their over shirt, as Sal said. This was even common during the late 16th century.

Another option would be for your character to go about in a gambeson, jack, or arming doublet. These varied in layers of protection. The ones to wear under plate were thinner because you don't need as much padding. The heavier ones were to wear under mail to soften concussions of blows or on their own. Several fechtbuken, such as Talhofer and Codex Wallerstien show fighters wearing such arming clothes. This would probably be typical dress for professional fighters, and I wouldn't be surprised to see one walking about in such clothing.

Best thing to do is to look at artwork from the period of your character and see what people were wearing. If you let us know what time period it is, we can help you better.

[Stacy Clifford]

You can see some good examples of arming clothes here. The jack and light jack qualify as a type of cloth armor by themselves.

http://www.matuls.pl/index.php?IDP=1&Ln ... ategoria=4

[Eli Freysson]

I would actually go with chain mail worn under his shirt. Assuming it's relativly cold outside.

I'm speaking in total ignorance here, but doesn't chainmail rattle quite a bit? Enough to screw up any attempt at moving silently?

Most people during this time who match your description of needing to be able to fight at a moment's notice didn't wear armor. Plenty of professional soldiers didn't wear armor on the battlefield even. Warm clothes worn during the harsh winters and mild summers in Europe actually provided reasonable protection against incidental and light cuts.

Huh. There goes another one of my assumptions. I WANTED him to just wear thick clothing but an annoying voice in the back of my head insisted I would be criticized for being unrealistic.

Best thing to do is to look at artwork from the period of your character and see what people were wearing. If you let us know what time period it is, we can help you better.

Well, I'm not going for an exact parallel to any particular historical era or place, but in terms of weapons and armor I'm thinking 11th century . . . ish.

You can see some good examples of arming clothes here. The jack and light jack qualify as a type of cloth armor by themselves.

http://www.matuls.pl/index.php?IDP=1&Ln ... ategoria=4

Interesting. How much protection did those offer? How would they hold up against a strong knife lunge, or a sword stroke?

[Joshua Welsh]

Nothing short of plate armor holds up well against a powerful knife lunge or a strong cut from a sword. Even maile will split with a strong thrust. And even if it does not break under a cut, it allows trauma to the bones and tissue. That's why they wore such thick, padded clothing under other armor. Padded, leather, and thick clothing will save for from minor cuts and slices, but not from a dedicated attack. That's why training in moving, and using your weapon to defend was so important.

If your character wants to be stealthy, have him wear a good padded Gambeson or leather Jerkin. If you're going with a more modern spin (i.e. Post Apocalyptic world, where old fighting arts meet new technology) you could have him wear a full plate harness or at least pauldrons, chest and back pieces, with rubber coated edges to quiet the clanking.

Josh
ARMA QC

[Stacy Clifford]

I've seen an ordinary quilted gambeson hold up against some surprisingly strong cuts in test cutting. There would still be lots of crush damage underneath, but if the sword is not exceptionally sharp or doesn't hit exactly square, plain old heavy cloth can often give against a chopping blow instead of splitting (a slice will cut the cloth much easier, but delivers less force and leaves a shallower wound). A jack can resist heavier cuts just due to the extra thickness, but as Josh said, nothing is really good against thrusting except plate armor or maile like this indestructable piece from the 2003 International Gathering:

[J. Scott Steflik]

What about a simple brigandine over a gambeson? I can't imagine mail was cheap to acquire, but a brigandine could be made out of pilfered steel scraps and shouldn't require the skill of a armorer to make.

[Sal Bertucci]

I'm speaking in total ignorance here, but doesn't chainmail rattle quite a bit? Enough to screw up any attempt at moving silently?

Not necessarily. If it were the outer most layer then you could expect jingling. However, if you have an undershirt on (To protect you from the chain mail), your mail shirt, and then an outer shirt over that: A.) there won't be much vibration to jingle. B.) Any jingling will be muffled fairly well.

I mean, you won't be Solid Snake level of sneakiness, but you could set up a quick and quiet ambush.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

I'm speaking in total ignorance here, but doesn't chainmail rattle quite a bit? Enough to screw up any attempt at moving silently?

Not necessarily. If it were the outer most layer then you could expect jingling. However, if you have an undershirt on (To protect you from the chain mail), your mail shirt, and then an outer shirt over that: A.) there won't be much vibration to jingle. B.) Any jingling will be muffled fairly well.

I mean, you won't be Solid Snake level of sneakiness, but you could set up a quick and quiet ambush.

Very true. A shirt of mail sandwiched between two lightly-quilted or lightly-padded tunics/jacks/gambesons/whatever barely makes any jingling noise at all. It could work with a sandwich of mail between two particularly thick wool tunics, too.

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned here is that a padded or quilted garment tends to make excellent cold-weather gear even when there's no expectation of combat, so in cold regions (or in winter) people probably wouldn't raise an eyebrow at somebody walking around in a thick quilted garment that could also serve as armour just in case.

Lastly, I suspect the untrained eye wouldn't have been able to distinguish a thick quilted garment from mail sandwiched between two lighter padded/quilted garments, at least as long as the mail doesn't poke out at the hem/sleeves/neckline of the outer garment. A hood or shoulder-mantle would be handy to hide the neckline in this case.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Is there such thing as leather or hide armor during the medieval or renaissance period? I'm not aware of it.

Yes--buff coats in the late 16th and 17th centuries, and boiled leather cuirasses earlier (with some survival into the later periods). Of course, neither was the kind of run-of-the-mill adventurers' armour we see in fantasy novels. The buff coat was expensive and beastly thick, while the boiled leather breastplate/cuirass was mostly an item worn by completely-armoured men-at-arms who for some reason didn't choose to wear metal cuirasses instead (could have been weight, but more likely because leather--while expensive before the development of more extensive ranching in the 17th century or so--was still a bit cheaper than properly forged and heat-treated steel).

Leather was also used as the outermost layer in some padded/quilted cloth garments, although its purpose in this case was either decorative or as a weatherproofing measure so it doesn't make the garment a "leather armour." One thing I'm wondering about is that if the leather keeps the rain out, would it keep the sweat in too? That would have been quite uncomfortable in the summer!

[Nicholas Moore]

What about adding pieces of metal sewen to the inside of a garment? without overlaping it would be simple, somewhat effective and realatively easy to construct. It would also be fairly light and quiet. Most importantly it would be cheap, made from metal scraps if need be. And from a tactical standpoint it would look like a simple (insert period upper body clothing). True it wouldn't last too long in a real fight but it could save you from the first few attacks and it would work agains't a fairly wide range of weapons.

[Sal Bertucci]

Yes, but (to stay in character) people who fight a lot and are good at it should eventually fight people better equiped than they are, kill tham, and take their stuff.

[CalebChow]

Here's an interesting piece too, the Jack Chain:

http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1122.html

A cheap, lightweight metal arm defense capable of deflecting up to 80% of all sword slashes? Sounds a bit over the top, but I can see the efficient value of it.

[Sal Bertucci]

I'd take them over nothing