Stick Fighting Gathering in the 80's

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Frederico Martins
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Stick Fighting Gathering in the 80's

Postby Frederico Martins » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:08 am

Hi everyone, just posted this video on youtube from a gathering in the 80's with different national schools of staff fencing. most of these groups aren't active anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZEh9Xci8w8

hope you like it.

Recently also just found this video with some stouborn old people still continue to practice it in the north:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h1CjwRKW9g

hould love to know what you think,
Cheers!

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:35 pm

Speaking as a total outsider: There seems to be a lot of unnecessary jumping and spinning.

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Stacy Clifford
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Postby Stacy Clifford » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:00 pm

On the first video I agree with Sal, while there is some excellent stuff in there, it's also obvious there's quite a bit of showmanship going on that has nothing to do with fighting.

The second video is really interesting. I think it's the first one of your JdP videos I've seen where somebody actually grabs the other guy's staff and then hits him. The striking, parrying and counterstriking is great and I can see it following the same principles as the staff fighting we study, but there's very little element of binding and controlling the opposing staff to grab, grapple or counterthrust, which is very important in the Renaissance sources. This looks like it's all strike and release. I've seen a little more variety in some previous videos you've posted, but that's still the overall impression.

The multiple attacker drills are fun to watch, but it looks like the guy in the center is doing all the fighting and the ones surrounding him are just herding him around and providing a target. I'd like to know better what the purpose of this exercise is.
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Frederico Martins
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Postby Frederico Martins » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:29 pm

Hi Sal, the spinning and jumping is actually a very effective way to power the weapon in multiple opponents practice.
when you are surrounded you cant just stop, and using the entire motion of the body to power the weapon will actually allow you to last more time and deliver more powerfull strikes. Using specific arm muscles would get you tired easily, or much sooner the strikes would get weaker and weaker and your opponents would get close. we use heavy staffs not rattan or some kind of cane.

jumping when spinnin is like lifting the feet when running, you just go faster.

also, it powers the weapon in the right angle for multiple opponents, since thrusts and vertical strikes are too unidirectional for multiple opponents in various directions, the spinning provides power in a more horizontal place, more ideal for oblique strikes.
Power is very important here not only because it is a staff, but also because you must force your opponents to retreat back at least a step even if they parry, If your strikes are weak and your opponent can parry them confidently and in place, you would be loosing space until they are all too close. Also, on power, your staff must not get stuck in a parry

It is not assumed you can take your opponents down, but that you can manage your space and survive until you find a way out or someone helps you. Unless they make a mistake and get hit, and that would be your lucky day.I think that is much more reasonable than assuming you could take them down one by one.

On the one on one combat, specially in the demonstrations, I agree that the spinning attack is being "abused" just for show off :)

please tell me if I was clear and if that makes sense to you.
I completely understand why you say that, as I also see alot of funky stuff in other martial arts, even if incredible athletic moves but that are useless in combat, I don't think that is the case and hope to be able to explain in my poor english. Even the one on one spinning attack, that are ofter abused for demonstrations, if well done they are more powerful than a normal attack and very hard to parry safely (no hand guards in the staff also).

Stacy, I agree that there are lots of stuff that aren't concertized and some showoff movements, specially at beginning and end.
Since the strikes are very strong, when we see the partner can't parry instead of stopping the weapon we usually change the trajectory of the attack, for the ground for example or shorten then, so not to hit him, that is one reason there is alot of misplaced strikes. I prefer to stop the fight there and restart, but that is not a nice thing to do in public displays(traditionally here) so people just continue.

about the grabbing of the weapon, that would only happen when one of the fighters does a very big mistake, like doing a very weak strike that can be grabbed and measuring the distances wrong, So it is something that when happens, we tend to try to correct for it not to happen, in that video they continue to have fun but it would be too easy for the guy with a free staff to crack the head of the other guy that would have no chance of parrying.

The bind just doesn't happen alot with the kind of strikes we do since with the power the staff get bounced back. I suppose it could happen more if you used different techniques but I'm not sure how they would work against full rotation strikes.

In multiple opponents practice it is very hard for the guys outside to strike without anyone getting hurt, the idea there is that they press the guy in the middle and force him to manage space well. but we assume that they can and will strike that is why you see striking one side then running and jumping for the other, so you are not in their range when they do. It is very hard to do athletically, it is not a miracle technique and most people would not be able to survive long against a group of eager opponents, but it is a way to practice that can give you a chance of surviving that does not use fantastically impossible techniques, and that is always a very complicated situation.

Multiple opponents technique is the most useful self defense skill one can have, since that is what you will probably most often find yourself in(in those times), and not in duels that are more "civilized" and require a more structured situation for them to happen, most ofter what happens is group fights or assaults. That is why they are practiced alot in jogo do pau, specially in more traditional groups.

sorry for a large post, but I tried to explain what you commented on, hope in a good way, but let me know of any other issue you find or if I said something too nonsensical.

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:10 pm

Thank you for the reply. I can definitely see the logic in your explanations.

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Postby steve hick » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:58 pm

[quote="Frederico Martins"]Hi Sal, the spinning and jumping ....quote]

And...and...we have jumping with a montante against polearms and multiple opponents in de Figueiredo's Memorial -- it also allows you to change direction or make a very large advance without losing some lateral control (on the polearm).

Thanks, Frederico, you know I love the older stuff, and especially the game of the north.

Steve

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:29 pm

Cool. I need a big sword!

Frederico Martins
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Postby Frederico Martins » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:41 am

Thank you Steve :)
It is nice to have historical works referring a very similar practice with a similar weapon from the same place, I wouldn't think people just invented this practice a few decades ago, and even if it had evolved to be better adapted to the characteristics of the staff, i'm sure something similar was common practice for much longer time.


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