Montante fighting manual?

[RayMcCullough]

What is up with "Memorial of the practice of the Montatnte"? Why does it not teach how to defend yourself? Is it me or has anyone else notice that there is no mention of how to actually fight with the montatnte, just the movements?



http://oakeshott.org/Figueiredo_Montant ... d_Hick.pdf

[Frederico Martins]

Hi Ray, you probably are not interested in my opinion about it, since it can be kind of biased;) but ill give it anyway, and you please judge how if it makes sense to you, and please let me know.

let me just say that I also find the manual very limited, it just describes a series of sequence of moves, for specific situations, but that are actually very generic, without talking much about the tactical decisions behind it.

But as far as I understood, mostly mentions by people that are studying seriously this manual and similar ones, this is a more common practice on Portugal and Spain, and not very much seen on the rest of Europe.

These manuals focus on solo drills that often are multi directional, 2 directions or 4 directions, this is clearly(stated by the authors) for combat in outnumbered situations, the larger size of the montante compared to the long sword favors that situations too.

Now, some more personal view,
In the end of the book the author mentions that those rules are to be used combining moves as the fencer feels necessary

“no swordsman necessarily should do this or that rule, but rather he should take from them all
what he best understands and that serves him to defeat his adversaries, linking one rule to another with such prudence that neither haste will confuse the memory”

that for me means, that the next step in practicing, after you have the moves controlled, is to practice distance and timing, in diverse situations and apply the moves to specific need of that ramdon situations, and not just do solo drills.

so, you should evolve as a fencer from this kind of practice where you are practicing the moves and blending between them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ9gK3yECyM

to something like this, where you are reacting to the environment and thinking on the instant where, when and how to strike:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmlcCcGoH5s

this, to someone that doesn't know what is happening, can look like just a bunch of sloppy old man hitting staffs, but they move around and look to manage space and distance and strike with powerful strikes that you wouldn’t want to be in the way, and not just light tapings.

Also, there is much more tactical complexity in multiple opponents combat than it looks like and is not described in the old books, Luis Preto will soon publish a book on outnumbered combat, based on jogo do pau system, and If I know Luis, it will deal with tactical decisions in depth.

now, take in consideration that combat in outnumbered scenarios is the most practical self defense skill one can have and you would find yourself most often in. unless in a very formalized dueling society where 2 people are fighting and the rest just watching. This is surely the most practical skill most people should practice for practical reasons. Not only that, but even the best one on one fighter, should be skilled in multiple opponents technique, to have a full control of the weapon, in multiple directions.

I believe that this kind of practice, suggested by Dom Diogo and found on still living arts on traditional groups is very valuable and is actually something that can still be practically used today, for self defense.

this is a local MMA guy that practices jogo do pau, in this case baton, and applies it to multiple opponents sparing, because he believes it it’s efficiency, not for any cultural or historical reasons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLGjSk0hezI

I personally find it interesting, that something similar to what was done with the montante and probably influenced by it, can still be utilized today practically and not just as an historical sport activity.

but please, I can't say that this is all for sure, let me know what you think about it and I would like to know if other people think of it and if it is reasonable or not.

[RayMcCullough]

Hi Ray, you probably are not interested in my opinion about it, since it can be kind of biased;)

Also, there is much more tactical complexity in multiple opponents combat than it looks like and is not described in the old books, Luis Preto will soon publish a book on outnumbered combat, based on jogo do pau system, and If I know Luis, it will deal with tactical decisions in depth.

now, take in consideration that combat in outnumbered scenarios is the most practical self defense skill one can have and you would find yourself most often in. unless in a very formalized dueling society where 2 people are fighting and the rest just watching. This is surely the most practical skill most people should practice for practical reasons. Not only that, but even the best one on one fighter, should be skilled in multiple opponents technique, to have a full control of the weapon, in multiple directions.

I would like to hear your opinions. That is why I asked to hear what others think about the book.
While most of the Manuals do not specificly cover multiple opponents, they do in that Knowing how to fight against one trains you to fight against many. You do however have to move around a little more than you would against one, but what you do does not change.

I believe that this kind of practice, suggested by Dom Diogo and found on still living arts on traditional groups is very valuable and is actually something that can still be practically used today, for self defense.

I personally find it interesting, that something similar to what was done with the montante and probably influenced by it, can still be utilized today practically and not just as an historical sport activity.

but please, I can't say that this is all for sure, let me know what you think about it and I would like to know if other people think of it and if it is reasonable or not.

I find the evidence between Jogo do Pau and the montante book completely insufficent to make any claims of linkage from one to the other. I have yet to find manuals that place its history beyond the 20th century.

Do you know of any Manuals that are older?

[Frederico Martins]

Hi Ray,

I understand you doubt and I'm not completely sure myself, I think it all makes sense in my mind, But I don't want to fool myself too, just exposing why I think it might be.

There are no actual manuals before the 20th century, this is a rural art practice by people that didn't knew how to write and read mostly.
However in one of the mid 20th century manuals you find references to older masters here:



My English is not very good but I'll try to make a translation.

José Maria da Silveira (O Saloio)
First of the great masters of staff fencing, he is the one that developed this practice as a sport, however there were other masters at his time like Domingos de Couras Salréu and Pedro Augusto da Silva, that in the end represented Silveira's school in the Travessa dos inglesinhos and in the Rua Nova do Loureiro.
Founder of the Lisbon school, that is called so to be a different kind of fencing from the provinces, that we still practice today, probably perfected.

As a boy he was a church singer and later he learned the jogo do pau. He had a heavy rock at his door with witch he measured strenght with the boys of his age.

Let a monumental name as a fencer with the staff and was master to our very popular and great king D. Carlos.
Born the the Calçada da Graça nr13 in Lisbon, in the year of 1805 and died at the age of 83 in 1888.

and a contemporary:

Master Joaquim Baú
Master Joaquim Baú was born in Marco de Canavezes, lived a long time in Golegâ and even at the age of 80 still practiced staff fighting in several parts of the country such as Espinho, Lisboa, Guimarães, Coimbra, Porto, Golegã, and other parts.

Traveled in exchange for donantions for classes of jogo do pau. Didn't have a fixed home, but had a live of traveling that made him walk the land.

He was a great player and master of great competence, contemporary of master José Maria da Silveira (o Saloio).

So, it seems the staff fencing was brought to Lisbon(from the north vilages) in the 1800's and turned into a more one on one fencing technique. Diverged there from the multiple opponents practice similar to the montante work we still call today the "north plays" of jogo do pau. And indeed specially the one on one technique was continuously developed and perfected by different masters (still differences in different local schools today) However they all do the same multiple opponents practice, practically the same way.

We today practice still both, the one on one and the north plays, and actually freeplay with it with padded gear.

It is not simply moving around, it is a kind of thing that if you don't develop it, when you need it you don't have it, and it was surely more important for the rural people to be able to do that, than dueling technique, but I'm sure that also happened.

EDIT:
also, there are more references to jogo do pau from the 1800s.
I haven't read those works unfortunately ( all out of print, should pay a visit to a few libraries around here), but here you can find one in the bibliography:
http://jmanly.ejmas.com/articles/2003/j ... a_0203.htm
JOAQUIM ANTÓNIO FERREIRA (da Cidade de Guimarães), «A Arte do Jogo do Pau», Porto 1886.

Before the 1800s I believe it will be hard to trace, I've seen mentions to a poem from the 1800 that describes occurrences/stories that until then were passed mouth to mouth(so, written in 1800 but supposedly things that happened before that), but I don't think we could go much further than that with written prove, do you have any idea?

[steve hick]

Hi Ray, you probably are not interested in my opinion about it, since it can be kind of biased;)

SNIP

Do you know of any Manuals that are older?

On JdP no, but we have descriptions of JdP from the 1700s. They are in Portuguese. Professor Rui Simoes' dissertation has this material. AFAIK, JdP in the north of Portugal was a fairly rough and tumble thing, where fights would often break out in faire or market towns. As far as written JdP methods and practice, you likely can back no further than when it came to Lisbon within last century, it was a tradition of the people before then. To find more details, you've got to read all the local records in the archives......when that gets digitized, we might know more.....

Is it 100% certain? No. A lot more research has to be done, and we, like everywhere else, running late.
Steve