Need help looking for specific sources for my training!

[coryzamparelli]

Hey! So I have been trying to the The Italian School of Swordsmanship for a while but my only issue is that all I see are sources and text for Longsword alone and Sword & Buckler, yet I am trying to learn Sword and Shield which I am pretty positive Fiore Di Liberi covered because they still used sword and shield in the early 1400's. Can anyone send me links for texts or videos I can use to help me with my training? Thanks!

[James Brazas]

It all depends on what sort of sword and shield you are looking for.

There are plenty of manuals from all over Europe dealing with Sword and Buckler that date from the 1290s all the way to the 1600s. So it was quite popular for a long time. There's some evidence to suggest it was used as early as the 900s. The buckler is a shield, albeit a small steel shield that you grab with your fist (approximately 9" to 18" in diameter, usually 12"). Sword and Buckler is one of the primary weapon styles taught by Di Grassi and Manciolino, for instance. Outside of Italy, Royal Manuscript I.33 and Talhoffer both cover sword and buckler a lot.

There are also later manuals dealing with Sword and Target. The Target shield is also known as the Rotella or Rodela by the Italians and Spaniards respectively. The Target shield was a round shield approximately 20" to 30" in diameter and was typically also made of steel. It was strapped to the arm. It was quite popular amongst heavy infantry in the Spanish and Scottish armies. Hernan Cortez used his rodeleros (Spanish Sword-and-Target men) to great effect against the Aztecs. If memory serves, Di Grassi and Manciolino also cover Sword and Target.

There is sword and duelling shield (aka Longshield). The Longshield was an absolutely gigantic wooden shield in a tall, roughly rectangular shape. It was held on to with your hand on a grip that looks like a staff. They also frequently had spikes on the top and bottom. Often, the Longshield was used by itself since it could be wielded like something between a spiked staff and a shield. The sword and longshield, however, was restricted almost exclusively to duels and did not see much if any battlefield use. Why that is, we do not know for sure. It could be due to how impractiably oversized it is or perhaps due to an aristocratic distaste for the weapon. Talhoffer is a good source for longshield/duelling shield both with and without a sword. He even has longshield and mace.

If you are looking for the classic crusader-era Sword and Shield (using a kite shield or heater shield), then I'm sad to say there are no surviving manuals that deal with that subject. It is quite a shame seeing as sword and kite/heater shield was the dominant sword style amongst the knights throughout the High Middle Ages. Yet no manuals on the subject survive.

This is due in part, no doubt, to the fact that by the time manuals started to be written in large numbers, knights were mostly wearing plate armor. When a knight is wearing plate armor, a shield is unnecessary. His armor is already more durable than the wood-and-leather kite shield or heater shield would be, so why carry around another a redundant piece of equipment? It was better to just use both hands for a longer weapon like a longsword, a spear, or a pollaxe. Using a two-handed weapon means more reach, more power, and better control. The longsword could be used with one hand or two, but was optimized for two-handed use.

Sword-and-buckler and sword-and-target continued to be used through the 1600s, so there's plenty of material on those subjects. They were on average smaller, lighter, and more durable than Crusader-era shields. So they continued to be used. Even Emperor Maximilian is known to have used sword-and-buckler.

If you still want to learn Crusader-era sword and shield, be forewarned that since there are no surviving manuscripts from the Medeival/Renaissance eras, all modern recreations are mere guesswork. Even the best interpretations for how they were used are only educated guesses. I know ARMA had a sword-and-shield system that John Clements, etc. developed, but I don't know much about it. Our group focuses only on styles for which we have manuals.

[James Brazas]

As for Fiore Delli Liberi, I am not aware of him ever teaching sword and shield.

You can look up all of his materials on wiktenauer, though wiktenauer.com is unfortunately down at the moment.

Fiore covers unarmed (Italian Abrazare), dagger, longsword in one hand, longsword in both hands, longsword while wearing plate armor (halfsword), spear, staff, pollaxe, mounted combat (with spear/lance, longsword, and unarmed), and stick/baton/club.

[coryzamparelli]

Thanks for the tips and info! It seems like the closest thing I was looking for was Sword and Target. I was referring to a heater type shield but I do remember that not all were as large and cumbersome as time went on. Like in the late 1300's-early 1400's they were still used since it was the beginning of plate armor so if I do remember correctly very early in the renaissance they were still around and being used, but in the mid-later years of the renaissance I do know that they had gotten rid of them for, like you said, longer weapons dude to the fact that plate armor had been around for a while and there was no need for that type of shield anymore. I have seen smaller types of heater shields that, generally, are around a similar size as the Rotella, do you think that it would be possible to implement the teachings of Sword and Target? I do remember Fiore teaching Sword and Rotella actually if I am not mistaken, from when I was researching his book. I could be wrong though, I am new to this but it has been a dream to learn this type of martial art. Also I am kind of comparing Sword and Target to Sword and Shield since whenever I look it up, I always see people saying "Sword and Shield" as a variant.

[James Brazas]

Sword and Target would probably be the closest of the surviving styles to Crusader Era sword and shield. But I emphasize "probably" for a reason.

We don't really know how Crusader-Era sword and shield were wielded, though the Sword-and-Target is most likely much closer to Crusader sword-and-shield than anything else.

From the medieval artwork, it seems that Crusader sword and shield had more closed stances and the Renaissance sword and target had more open stances.

I actually discussed this very issue with other forum members earlier.
http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24439


I was advised to learn sword and buckler before learning sword and target since most of the manuals for sword and target assume you already know sword and buckler. Regardless of what kind of shield you learn, keep in mind that shields are weapons. You can attack with a shield as well as defend.

Here is more material I was given:

http://www.nova-assalto.com/files/Bolog ... ctions.pdf

If you want more information, I would contact Steven Reich. He does a lot of work with Italian Sword-and-Buckler and well as Italian Sword-and-Target/Rotella.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hey! So I have been trying to the The Italian School of Swordsmanship for a while but my only issue is that all I see are sources and text for Longsword alone and Sword & Buckler, yet I am trying to learn Sword and Shield which I am pretty positive Fiore Di Liberi covered because they still used sword and shield in the early 1400's. Can anyone send me links for texts or videos I can use to help me with my training? Thanks!

There is an Italian master named Di Grassi who talked about that in some detail. You might get his manual.

[coryzamparelli]

Alrighty, Thanks for the help again I really appreciate it. Yeah it was weird trying to explain it because I was wanting to learn Sword and Target type fighting, but with a small heater type shield. Just from knowing history I am assuming (Then again, assuming makes an ass outta you and me lol) That in the early 1400's to the early mid 1400's, they used those smaller heater shields in warfare in a fashion like we use Sword and Target. I will definitely look up a lot more with that subject because though I'm pretty confident with that theory I could be wrong. Either way thanks for the info I really appreciate it now I have somewhere to start.

Also what kinda helped was I was doing some research and I found some pictures and historical depictions of early 15th century knights and late 14th century knights, pretty much at the very beginning of The Italian Renaissance and they have also been depicted with those smaller heater shields I was talking about earlier even though that also were wearing plate armor.
http://home.arcor.de/mustangace/sca_cla ... play31.jpg

http://www.hobbyworldinc.com/p160032.jpg (I do know that is a picture of a model but it's of a knight around the same period I was talking about)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/ ... night2.png (Now for this one I was looking for late 14th century but I got mainly early 14th century knights but this is a mid 14th century knight using a much smaller heater shield than those of the Crusader Era.)

http://www.britishbattles.com/100-years ... enry-v.jpg (Here is a very good picture of the 100 years war with knights in plate using heater shields. Even though the knights are English, not Italian, the concept is the same)

http://www.luckypalm.com/wp-content/upl ... rs_war.jpg

http://www.dutkins.com/catalog/photos/MA/338-341.JPG (this shows some models of Italian soldiers from the late 14th century, early 15th century. Notice the one on the far left is in full plate with a small heater shield)

http://www.antiwarsongs.org/img/upl/fanfu.jpg (Here is a depiction of an Italian "Condottieri" using plate armor and a heater type shield)

Here are just some example I have found that kind of gave me the Idea that shield and target fighting used heater type shields at one point, since heaters were still used around the time of the great masters like Dardi and Fiore.

[Stacy Clifford]

We've been slowly working our way through Di Grassi for some time and although we haven't gotten to the rotella stuff yet, something to keep in mind is that the sword Di Grassi is using is not the same sword that was used three hundred years earlier with mail armor and a shield. It can still cut, but it is a much more slender sword with a heavy emphasis on thrusting over cutting, so don't expect the method to be identical to how you would use a broader blade designed to shear mail. Also, you need to work your way through the earlier weapons presented in Di Grassi's book to understand his teachings properly. It's an amazingly dense text and if you skip ahead past single sword, sword & dagger, etc. you'll miss some important stuff.

[RayMcCullough]

Alrighty, Thanks for the help again I really appreciate it. Yeah it was weird trying to explain it because I was wanting to learn Sword and Target type fighting, but with a small heater type shield. Just from knowing history I am assuming (Then again, assuming makes an ass outta you and me lol) That in the early 1400's to the early mid 1400's, they used those smaller heater shields in warfare in a fashion like we use Sword and Target. I will definitely look up a lot more with that subject because though I'm pretty confident with that theory I could be wrong. Either way thanks for the info I really appreciate it now I have somewhere to start.

Also what kinda helped was I was doing some research and I found some pictures and historical depictions of early 15th century knights and late 14th century knights, pretty much at the very beginning of The Italian Renaissance and they have also been depicted with those smaller heater shields I was talking about earlier even though that also were wearing plate armor.
http://home.arcor.de/mustangace/sca_cla ... play31.jpg

http://www.hobbyworldinc.com/p160032.jpg (I do know that is a picture of a model but it's of a knight around the same period I was talking about)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/ ... night2.png (Now for this one I was looking for late 14th century but I got mainly early 14th century knights but this is a mid 14th century knight using a much smaller heater shield than those of the Crusader Era.)

http://www.britishbattles.com/100-years ... enry-v.jpg (Here is a very good picture of the 100 years war with knights in plate using heater shields. Even though the knights are English, not Italian, the concept is the same)

http://www.luckypalm.com/wp-content/upl ... rs_war.jpg

http://www.dutkins.com/catalog/photos/MA/338-341.JPG (this shows some models of Italian soldiers from the late 14th century, early 15th century. Notice the one on the far left is in full plate with a small heater shield)

http://www.antiwarsongs.org/img/upl/fanfu.jpg (Here is a depiction of an Italian "Condottieri" using plate armor and a heater type shield)

Here are just some example I have found that kind of gave me the Idea that shield and target fighting used heater type shields at one point, since heaters were still used around the time of the great masters like Dardi and Fiore.

The pictures that you posted were not from the 14th and 15th centuries. I would look for Art from the time period instead of some modern or later depictions to get a better Idea of what they used then. Two of the pics did not appear for me, so if those were from the period then good.

I just wanted to state the obvious. The 19th century depictions you see in a lot of places are not historical.

[coryzamparelli]

Alrighty, Thanks for the help again I really appreciate it. Yeah it was weird trying to explain it because I was wanting to learn Sword and Target type fighting, but with a small heater type shield. Just from knowing history I am assuming (Then again, assuming makes an ass outta you and me lol) That in the early 1400's to the early mid 1400's, they used those smaller heater shields in warfare in a fashion like we use Sword and Target. I will definitely look up a lot more with that subject because though I'm pretty confident with that theory I could be wrong. Either way thanks for the info I really appreciate it now I have somewhere to start.

Also what kinda helped was I was doing some research and I found some pictures and historical depictions of early 15th century knights and late 14th century knights, pretty much at the very beginning of The Italian Renaissance and they have also been depicted with those smaller heater shields I was talking about earlier even though that also were wearing plate armor.
http://home.arcor.de/mustangace/sca_cla ... play31.jpg

http://www.hobbyworldinc.com/p160032.jpg (I do know that is a picture of a model but it's of a knight around the same period I was talking about)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/ ... night2.png (Now for this one I was looking for late 14th century but I got mainly early 14th century knights but this is a mid 14th century knight using a much smaller heater shield than those of the Crusader Era.)

http://www.britishbattles.com/100-years ... enry-v.jpg (Here is a very good picture of the 100 years war with knights in plate using heater shields. Even though the knights are English, not Italian, the concept is the same)

http://www.luckypalm.com/wp-content/upl ... rs_war.jpg

http://www.dutkins.com/catalog/photos/MA/338-341.JPG (this shows some models of Italian soldiers from the late 14th century, early 15th century. Notice the one on the far left is in full plate with a small heater shield)

http://www.antiwarsongs.org/img/upl/fanfu.jpg (Here is a depiction of an Italian "Condottieri" using plate armor and a heater type shield)

Here are just some example I have found that kind of gave me the Idea that shield and target fighting used heater type shields at one point, since heaters were still used around the time of the great masters like Dardi and Fiore.

The pictures that you posted were not from the 14th and 15th centuries. I would look for Art from the time period instead of some modern or later depictions to get a better Idea of what they used then. Two of the pics did not appear for me, so if those were from the period then good.

I just wanted to state the obvious. The 19th century depictions you see in a lot of places are not historical.

I didn't mean the artwork was actually from that time period, I was just trying to find art depicting the time period I was speaking of is all. except for the 100 years war one, That one was actually from that time period.

[James Brazas]

What Ray McCullough means is that just because a given work of art claims to portray a scene from a given era doesn't mean it does so in a historically accurate manner.

A lot of 19th Century art depicting Medieval or Renaissance scenes blurs the lines between eras, showing things together that may have been centuries apart.

For example, they might show full plate armor in scenes from the 1200s (before it was invented) or they might show heater shields in the 1500s (long after they ceased to be used).

A work of art from the Renaissance that portrays the Renaissance will almost always be historically accurate, though.

The only time I could reasonably see heater shields and plate armor coexist would be the 1300s. The 1300s were a time of very rapid change. They began more-or-less with Crusader arms and armor (sword and shield, maille, coat of plates, etc.). Then you have the invention of early guns, pike warfare, the rise of large scale use of crossbows and longbows, longswords, and early plate armor.

Personally, I find that they rarely do 14th Century armor right. They generally just paint either Crusader maille or Renaissance full articulated plate. They rarely paint the transitional plate armor in use in the 1300s.

By the time full articulated plate armor was firmly in place, the only shield you would commonly see a knight carry would be a buckler. (Even then, longsword was more popular amongst the knights than sword-and-buckler.) Target shields were used, of course, but generally by middle class warriors that could not afford a full suit of armor. Typically, the sword-and-target users would have a breastplate, helmet, and their target for protection.

[coryzamparelli]

I understand. One of those pictures though was from the early 15th century which had heater shields. But I did a little digging and found out some very key information but I have a missing link that can be solved if I can find an answer to this question. So yes it was pretty obvious by the start of the renaissance the shield was starting to become obsolete, or at least the large heater shields of the Crusader - Era. Yet there were still fighting styles that included a shield like Sword & Rotella. Now after researching I completely forgot about the Pavise. I'm sure you already are well aware of what it is but for the heck of it, the Pavise was originally a very large shield that kept the archers and crossbowmen behind cover. Over time, into even the late renaissance, Hand Pavise's were being used by Knights in full armor as a shield. Now the only question I have is, if anyone knows, was the Hand Pavise used with the same techniques as Shield & Rotella? Because if so then I think it is very possible that a Heater Shield or a smaller Heater type shield may have been used by knights at the beginning of the 15th century.
Here are some pictures by Artists from that time period so you can see the size of the Pavise. *Also I am pretty sure the great Italian sword masters have used and dealt with this shield because the Pavise is an Italian invention.

http://mailmaker.tripod.com/armor/freydal_116.jpg

http://mailmaker.tripod.com/armor/max-t ... avices.jpg

[James Brazas]

I've seen shields similar to those pavises in Di Grassi's works. His were held like bucklers, but the shape was the same. It's quite possible that his square shields were used both like bucklers and like targets/rotellas.

Regardless, shields of all sorts were used more by those that did not have full plate armor.

The longsword was by far the most common knightly sword style in the 15th Century. Other fairly common styles included sword-and-buckler and later on the sidesword (also sometimes with a buckler).

Pavises, targets/rotellas, etc. were used during the Age of Plate. It's just that they would not have been what most knights would choose.

The most common set of weapons for a knight would be a spear, pollaxe, longsword, and dagger. As you might expect, that's what most of the manuals deal with.

Many of the later Italian manuals focused on the sidesword when that weapon came into common use. They covered sidesword alone, as well as paired with a dagger, buckler, pavise, or rotella.

Again, typically the better your armor, the less value there was in a large shield. So well-armored knights tended to prefer two-handed weapons or at most a sword and buckler. A lesser armored warrior would benefit a lot more from the steel rotella or pavise.

[coryzamparelli]

Ah okay, Well thank you for all the help and I appreciate the patience haha I didn't want to anger everyone with pushing the whole heater shield thing.Well more than likely I will focus on Sword and Buckler first like you said then move on to Sword and Rotella. The only thing that will be hard with training now is the fact that I don't think there are too many people who practice this type of martial art here in Florida which stinks but I will keep on pushing and learning. Thanks again!